Training for Leaders on Faith Crisis

[Anonymous]

Hey DB, I just have a question. Did someone ask you to do this or is this something you want to do? I have giving some training to all SS presidents and their staff as a HC for the ward conferences and I have made some of these issues part of that training. I have only done one ward so far and and the information was well received. I talked about how we can prepare the youth for receiving this information and we discussed the importance of being truthful in our teaching. I didn’t get into many details about many of these issues except for the priesthood band. We had a great discussion about that. I struggled with how to present this without tipping my hat too much and I didn’t want to cause anyone to start questioning their faith. When I was asked to do this by the stake I explained that I would do this but I would only do it if I could be true to myself and that was great for them. They know how I feel about the whitewashed version of church history and I was told to run with that thought.

Doing all this made me very nervous. There is that fine line I did not was to cross but I felt like my leaders were behind me but I was afraid if I crossed that line they would be upset. I wish you luck on this and maybe because of your podcast you feel more opened to being exposed. I think you believe a little more than I do. Please keep us posted.

[Anonymous]

DBMormon wrote:

Ann wrote:

Seems like we hear a lot about the proper content of a testimony. It’s not a travelogue, medical record, gratitude list, or even very personal – hold back on the stories – just the facts. Could they please rework this concept for those of us with fewer and fewer facts? I wonder if a meeting with a variety of acceptable testimonies would go a long way. I think it was here that someone linked to a talk by a new member of a Palo Alto stake presidency. He just said up front, never had a burning in the bosom or any strong spiritual witness that the gospel was true. Then he went on to talk about how his spirituality works and express his desire to serve the stake. Very refreshing.

I think this is what your referring to

http://richalger.blogspot.com/2012/09/praying-with-your-feet.html

That was it. My mistake – Menlo Park. His mom told him to stop praying with his knees and pray with his feet.

[Anonymous]

church0333 wrote:

Hey DB, I just have a question. Did someone ask you to do this or is this something you want to do? I have giving some training to all SS presidents and their staff as a HC for the ward conferences and I have made some of these issues part of that training. I have only done one ward so far and and the information was well received. I talked about how we can prepare the youth for receiving this information and we discussed the importance of being truthful in our teaching. I didn’t get into many details about many of these issues except for the priesthood band. We had a great discussion about that. I struggled with how to present this without tipping my hat too much and I didn’t want to cause anyone to start questioning their faith. When I was asked to do this by the stake I explained that I would do this but I would only do it if I could be true to myself and that was great for them. They know how I feel about the whitewashed version of church history and I was told to run with that thought.

Doing all this made me very nervous. There is that fine line I did not was to cross but I felt like my leaders were behind me but I was afraid if I crossed that line they would be upset. I wish you luck on this and maybe because of your podcast you feel more opened to being exposed. I think you believe a little more than I do. Please keep us posted.

My stake presidencty is aware of my FAIR interview and other Bishops in the stake have seen it and all of them have stated it would be good to get more of this out there as training to leaders. I too was extremely nervous,but to a T all responses have been positive. I think we live in fear becasue we hear a bad story or two, but reality has been very different for me. The time is now!!!!

[Anonymous]

DB I really do hope the time is now. I will proceed with caution and with this hope. We’ll see where this take us. I think when the leaders know what’s going on it helps.

[Anonymous]

Brian Johnston wrote:

There are many examples of of prophets and apostles being imperfect in the scriptures, even making very big “mistakes.” Yet somehow we expect our leaders today to be cut from a cloth with no flaws.

Examples:

-Noah had a serious drinking problem at one point in his prophetic life First thing he did when the ark landed was plant a vineyard, got drunk and started laying around like some hippie nudist, lol.

-Moses wasn’t allowed to enter the promised land because of his sassy attitude of disobedience, and taking credit for the miracles. He was one of the greatest prophets.

-Nephi laments his weaknesses and sinful nature, but has hope in the Lord.

-Joseph Smith’s many many quotes on being no better than anyone else, having many flaws.

-Peter denied Christ and was also a hot head with a sword, but was still the rock upon which The Lord was to build his church.

-The many instances of the apostles not understanding Jesus in The Gospels.

-Abraham: his story of the almost-sacrifice of Isaac could also be looked at as following his local false traditions of human sacrifice.

These were all great prophets! They continued on to be prophets even though they were wrong at times.

I think this is really important. We apply 2000s standards to Joseph because he feels like a ‘latter-day’ person – but in reality grew up in a culture we would hardly recognise.

On the other hand we entirely ignore the ‘bad behaviour’ of the Old Testament prophets because they are so ancient. If Joseph had done what Noah did, the critics would have a field day!

[Anonymous]

Ann wrote:

…..If I could talk freely with my bishop, I would like to express what I do believe or hope. In some ways, this has been a great thing. I feel like my intentions are purer and my follow-through more disciplined and self-motivated. The up side for my family and anyone else that I work with is that I’ve stopped micro-managing and caring about what any one peripheral to the situation thinks of it..

I appreciate your posts Ann…I think its because our crisises (sp?) must have occurred around the same time so we are in similar phases.

I actually must say that after the first week or so…after that wierd lump in the pit of my stomach went away…after I quit sneaking off to read stayLDS worrying I was going to be accused of reading Anti-Mormon sites…that I felt like a great weight was lifted off my shoulders. Such a relief once you realize “it is ok to doubt” and that I am not evil for wondering about the literlness of the BoM…

Ann wrote:

…..I came to this site with a fairly narrow concern. The response and all the other information inspired me to make purposeful decisions. Coincidentally I was reading some church history that blew my naive mind. I can’t put myself back together again the same way, and I hope a leader would recognize that. My goal is to understand, love and emulate Christ. Any doctrine, policy, procedure, person, meeting, scripture or ceremony that doesn’t help me do that, I will stay away from.

I don’t know what to do when a “revealed truth” of the restoration doesn’t feel true. Small example – the three degrees of glory. That has never rung true to me. I take “three” to signal more than heaven/hell, but that the many mansions could be as numerous as the people who have lived. I wish I could have back time spent talking in class about who gets to visit whom between kingdoms. I don’t think I could make a sincere prayer asking about it. There are parts of the temple that don’t feel right. I don’t know what to do about that..

Again i think I am in a similar place…for me I was studying for a sacrament talk and stumbled on the book of abraham authenticity thing…of course I was like “WTF?” (Was Translated Faslsely?) of course trying to chase that down opened up Pandoras box and the lid to that vessel disintegrates once open…no covering it back up.

I am with you on the temple…most of the endowment physical activities and clothing felt odd the first time, the second time…and honestly every time since….again…what a relief to feel ok with htose feelings…DBMormon…one thing would be good to add…and I would love your input…do we go to the temple still if we don’t believe the prophet is infallible? If we wonder if maybe JS didn’t go a little crazy with his Masonic learnings and love of physical symbols when it comes to the temple? I admit I am a bit unsure of myself in this area…so I am guessing a few others might be as well

[Anonymous]

johnh wrote:

…I felt like a great weight was lifted off my shoulders. Such a relief once you realize “it is ok to doubt” and that I am not evil for wondering about the literlness of the BoM…

I would say it is not only okay …but in fact our eternal progression rests on our eternal wondering…

johnh wrote:

…do we go to the temple still if we don’t believe the prophet is infallible? If we wonder if maybe JS didn’t go a little crazy with his Masonic learnings and love of physical symbols when it comes to the temple? I admit I am a bit unsure of myself in this area…so I am guessing a few others might be as well

I hope you will look up and listen to an early Mormon Stories podcast with Mormon Mason Greg Kearney.

The prophet has never been infallible, I don’t see how recognizing a truth would be a disqualifier for temple worship. I had an amazing experience in the temple my first trip back after the point of my crisis. I went with a completely open mind, knowing full well the historical setting of Joseph’s introduction of the endowment in Nauvoo. I held the question loosely in my mind: “what did those early saints experience in the endowment – as they would have framed it in their own understanding?” while I was also completely open to the goodness of the universe and any insights that may find their way to my soul. For me it was grand, one of the few defining spiritual experiences of my life. I was expecting nothing, but simply open and positive. I think that is key.

[Anonymous]

Bill, its too bad you are not in my stake, or any stake in Cache Valley….because you would find you have a little more free time afterwards to work on all those podcasts.

As it is…good luck with that calling of yours.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

[Anonymous]

johnh, if people who don’t believe in prophetic infallibility had to stop attending the temple, there would be relatively few people in the temples – and never any of the Q12 or FP.

Just saying.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

Bill, its too bad you are not in my stake, or any stake in Cache Valley….because you would find you have a little more free time afterwards to work on all those podcasts.

As it is…good luck with that calling of yours.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

I am not so sure that would happen. It might, but I doubt it. Since my first interview on Mormon Stories and going through the FAIR interview and my podcasts, I have had positive communication w/ a member of the Q12, a member of the seventy, three stake presidents, two counselors in a stake presidentcy, one mission president, and 4 or 5 bishops (all but three of these leaders outside my stake and outside of the Cleveland Ohio Mission) who have all seen my effort to discuss faith crisis as positive and needed. None have asked me to stop, none have made me feel like I am treading on dangerous ground. Other then the MDDB board and the comments submitted on the MormonStories Interview , I have gotten zero flack from anyone. Do I promote doubt? nope. Do I agree with any groups or individuals who oppose the church? Nope.

In fact I would argue that I have helped at least some on the fence see the conclusion of faith as more appealing then they did and that my effort has hopefully protected some who were at risk. I have yet to have someone write me and tell me how all that I am doing is causing harm to the church.

I had expected some negative, but have gotten none. You should see the emails I have gotten over the last month from the leaders I mentioned above. 100% positive thus far. How is my work in regards to motives and intent any different then Dick Bushman’s “Rough Stone Rolling”? (and yes he is way smarter and more scholarly…. but besides that)

[Anonymous]

johnh wrote:

b]DBMormon…one thing would be good to add…and I would love your input…do we go to the temple still if we don’t believe the prophet is infallible?

No member of the Q12 or FP or Seventy for that matter likely believes the prophet is infallible, so why do you feel you have to or worry that you do? Of course you can go to the Temple believing the prophet to be fallible. The doctrine is the prophet is only a prophet whn acting as such. Unfortunately many have explained or implied it incorrectly, there will always be incorrect teachings in the church, which is why one must have the HG to dicern.

[Anonymous]

DBMormon wrote:

cwald wrote:

Bill, its too bad you are not in my stake, or any stake in Cache Valley….because you would find you have a little more free time afterwards to work on all those podcasts.

As it is…good luck with that calling of yours.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

I am not so sure that would happen. It might, but I doubt it. Since my first interview on Mormon Stories and going through the FAIR interview and my podcasts, I have had positive communication w/ a member of the Q12, a member of the seventy, three stake presidents, two counselors in a stake presidentcy, one mission president, and 4 or 5 bishops (all but three of these leaders outside my stake and outside of the Cleveland Ohio Mission) who have all seen my effort to discuss faith crisis as positive and needed. None have asked me to stop, none have made me feel like I am treading on dangerous ground. Other then the MDDB board and the comments submitted on the MormonStories Interview , I have gotten zero flack from anyone. Do I promote doubt? nope. Do I agree with any groups or individuals who oppose the church? Nope.

In fact I would argue that I have helped at least some on the fence see the conclusion of faith as more appealing then they did and that my effort has hopefully protected some who were at risk. I have yet to have someone write me and tell me how all that I am doing is causing harm to the church.

I had expected some negative, but have gotten none. You should see the emails I have gotten over the last month from the leaders I mentioned above. 100% positive thus far. How is my work in regards to motives and intent any different then Dick Bushman’s “Rough Stone Rolling”? (and yes he is way smarter and more scholarly…. but besides that)

All good to hear.

[Anonymous]

johnh wrote:

Ann wrote:

…..If I could talk freely with my bishop, I would like to express what I do believe or hope. In some ways, this has been a great thing. I feel like my intentions are purer and my follow-through more disciplined and self-motivated. The up side for my family and anyone else that I work with is that I’ve stopped micro-managing and caring about what any one peripheral to the situation thinks of it..

I appreciate your posts Ann…I think its because our crisises (sp?) must have occurred around the same time so we are in similar phases.

I actually must say that after the first week or so…after that wierd lump in the pit of my stomach went away…after I quit sneaking off to read stayLDS worrying I was going to be accused of reading Anti-Mormon sites…that I felt like a great weight was lifted off my shoulders. Such a relief once you realize “it is ok to doubt” and that I am not evil for wondering about the literlness of the BoM…

Ann wrote:

…..I came to this site with a fairly narrow concern. The response and all the other information inspired me to make purposeful decisions. Coincidentally I was reading some church history that blew my naive mind. I can’t put myself back together again the same way, and I hope a leader would recognize that. My goal is to understand, love and emulate Christ. Any doctrine, policy, procedure, person, meeting, scripture or ceremony that doesn’t help me do that, I will stay away from.

I don’t know what to do when a “revealed truth” of the restoration doesn’t feel true. Small example – the three degrees of glory. That has never rung true to me. I take “three” to signal more than heaven/hell, but that the many mansions could be as numerous as the people who have lived. I wish I could have back time spent talking in class about who gets to visit whom between kingdoms. I don’t think I could make a sincere prayer asking about it. There are parts of the temple that don’t feel right. I don’t know what to do about that..

Again i think I am in a similar place…for me I was studying for a sacrament talk and stumbled on the book of abraham authenticity thing…of course I was like “WTF?” (Was Translated Faslsely?) of course trying to chase that down opened up Pandoras box and the lid to that vessel disintegrates once open…no covering it back up.

I am with you on the temple…most of the endowment physical activities and clothing felt odd the first time, the second time…and honestly every time since….again…what a relief to feel ok with htose feelings…DBMormon…one thing would be good to add…and I would love your input…do we go to the temple still if we don’t believe the prophet is infallible? If we wonder if maybe JS didn’t go a little crazy with his Masonic learnings and love of physical symbols when it comes to the temple? I admit I am a bit unsure of myself in this area…so I am guessing a few others might be as well

I consider the Endowment to be pretty awesome and have some amazing parallels to Egyptian and Greek temple worship, plus certain practices of the early Christians. Certainly there are masonic parallels and, no, I don’t think the masons got it from building Solomon’s temple. I’m fine with the principle that Joseph learned the idea of symbolic token giving at the Masons. The non-masonic parts are the best bits anyway.

These two chapters by Hugh Nibley are fantastic (the first talks about Temple in the Book of Abraham which, based on the source of your faith journey, might be useful):

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=21&chapid=8

And… http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=103&chapid=1148

More Nibley here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Hugh_Nibley/Further_Reading

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the links. I could only see the first two, and skimmed. Not sure I am really a Nibley-level reader. I lked reading about Abraham. And re. reason for Egpyt’s great leap forward – “the abiding goal of the people was nothing less than resurrection and eternal life. It was that which made Egyptian civilization what it was.”

I know my life would be very different without the temple. If you just ask, based on the fruits of the temple in your life, is the LDS temple ceremony divine? I’d say yes. My parents were adult converts from terrible dysfunctional families. I really think that without the strict requirements of the temple, they wouldn’t have been able to make the changes they did. My husband takes his commitments (not himself) very seriously. He’s a rock. For myself,

But when I’m there, I think about the history, the content, how the content is delivered. The murky plural marriage beginnings, the treatment (not exactly the word I’m looking for) of women, Brigham Young’s oath of vengeance, the earlier strangeness of people being sealed to each other without actual relationship, penalties affixed and then removed, second anointings distributed widely and then not – I don’t feel like I’m in the midst of something timeless or eternal, or just. And if modern times and we as a people are somehow influential in the changes that are made, then is it really wrong to say that I want changes? I would like my teenage daughters to experience the initiatory on the same footing a teenage boy does.

It must just strike other people differently. Nibley said the creation is “made vivid to us by suberb cinematographic and sound recordings.” I guess I’m a 180 away. I am distracted by the disjointedness of the whole presentation and ashamed of my feelings. Once I was on the way home from the temple with a much-older woman. I had just decided that day to give myself a pass on disliking the Satan portrayer so much. She said, “I just love __________. He is such a wonderful actor.” No reason to disagree with her or with calling the film suberb, but if it doesn’t strike you that way, it doesn’t.

For awhile maybe I should stop trying to plumb for great depth and beauty. I can consider my all-white clothing a reminder of my baptism and leave it at that. And just love who I’m there with. A book about the Sabbath had a line about the Sabbath being “a temple in time.” Since I love the Sabbath, and I can connect with the idea, maybe I should consider the temple “a Sabbath in space” and see where that takes me.

[Anonymous]

Ann, I haven’t paid much attention to the play/film in years. I’ve let my mind wander and ponder whatever hits it.

My expereinces doing that have been sublime – much better than watching a movie, one more time, I already know by heart.

[Author]

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