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Ann wrote:
Thanks for the links. I could only see the first two, and skimmed. Not sure I am really a Nibley-level reader. I lked reading about Abraham. And re. reason for Egpyt’s great leap forward – “the abiding goal of the people was nothing less than resurrection and eternal life. It was that which made Egyptian civilization what it was.”
I know my life would be very different without the temple. If you just ask, based on the fruits of the temple in your life, is the LDS temple ceremony divine? I’d say yes. My parents were adult converts from terrible dysfunctional families. I really think that without the strict requirements of the temple, they wouldn’t have been able to make the changes they did. My husband takes his commitments (not himself) very seriously. He’s a rock. For myself,
But when I’m there, I think about the history, the content, how the content is delivered. The murky plural marriage beginnings, the treatment (not exactly the word I’m looking for) of women, Brigham Young’s oath of vengeance, the earlier strangeness of people being sealed to each other without actual relationship, penalties affixed and then removed, second anointings distributed widely and then not – I don’t feel like I’m in the midst of something timeless or eternal, or just. And if modern times and we as a people are somehow influential in the changes that are made, then is it really wrong to say that I want changes? I would like my teenage daughters to experience the initiatory on the same footing a teenage boy does.
It must just strike other people differently. Nibley said the creation is “made vivid to us by suberb cinematographic and sound recordings.” I guess I’m a 180 away. I am distracted by the disjointedness of the whole presentation and ashamed of my feelings. Once I was on the way home from the temple with a much-older woman. I had just decided that day to give myself a pass on disliking the Satan portrayer so much. She said, “I just love __________. He is such a wonderful actor.” No reason to disagree with her or with calling the film suberb, but if it doesn’t strike you that way, it doesn’t.
For awhile maybe I should stop trying to plumb for great depth and beauty. I can consider my all-white clothing a reminder of my baptism and leave it at that. And just love who I’m there with. A book about the Sabbath had a line about the Sabbath being “a temple in time.” Since I love the Sabbath, and I can connect with the idea, maybe I should consider the temple “a Sabbath in space” and see where that takes me.
It could be worse… you could have been around a few 1000 years ago when the women were banned and lambs having their throats cut
I agree, I read that from Nibley about the amazing film and snorted. It’s a bit cringe-worthy. I would guess, on the other hand, that if he wrote that particular chapter in the 70s or 80s they probably did seem very impressive. Again, the relativity of symbols based on culture and context I guess.
On Wensday night I did trainIng for the stake on some of these issues and I thought it went well , but today the SS president pulled me aside and said he does not understand why I worry about these things and we were not there so we can’t know the truth He said I was just trying to push an agenda. Am I trying to do that? Maybe I am. And mybe that’s not my job. It feels right but do I do it just to push my agenda? Yes, you are – the agenda of love. I’m cool with that. He obviously doesn’t understand how many people are affected by this and why.
Here is the deal… Many people survive by locking in their reality….it will not change. We all know someone who fits in to the “Don’t bother me with the facts” type of person. There are tons of them in all organizations. The whole emperors new clothes story highlights this as a common group think outcome. Bottom line many people believe what they need to believe to survive.
In the 80’s doctors refused to believe anything could live in the stomach…so for another decade thousands of people lived with ulcers because medical proffessionals refused to accept otherwise…why? Pride? Financial Gain (you get paid more for treating a disease than you do for curing it)? Who knows…but the CDC had to actively communicate to Doctors the right thing to do to get this changed.
When it comes to philosophy there are no hard facts and no government oversite to push the issues. People setup the scaffold they need to hold their glass house up….The guy in the hall is saying to you “dude….quit f*cking with my scaffold”. People in his position get scared…hell we all did when we were trying to believe the whole mormon story….anything shaking it got rapidly put down as anti propaganda. I think the only thing you might need to watch out for is that you might knock over a few scaffolds accidentally. Not everyone should hear all of the questions about the church….many “can’t handle the truth” yet their lives are so much better than they would be if they were to leave the church because they can’t think from a “stayLDS” perspective…and many people can’t. NOM’s talk about their “shelves crashing”. I believe thats the norm for most people…i think it is the minority that are able to disassemble the shelf and re-use the material to make something useful.
Just yesterday I spoke to a person who was frustrated with his Bishop. They have a Retarded young man from a poor single mom (she is less active) who recieved the aaronic priesthood (the boy is big…like wears size 5x shirts). The mom spent money she didn’t have to get him a nice shirt so he could pass the sacrament…but mom, sinner she is bought light blue. The Bishop of course denied him to be able to pass…and when shown the actual guideline in the guidebook said “well I choose to follow the bretheren”
the guy just sputtered and said “This is th ewords of the bretheren…they said don’t deny this young man”….he says…well ..my leaders say different. There…there is a guy with a fragile scaffold…his hold is so tenuous he can’t let any other perspectives in to his world view…he also asks people who come in with a faith crisis “what is out of order in your life? There must be something you have not repented of”….those guys..if there are any in your stake will not be open to hearing your words…and in my opinion the guy in the hall..he is one of them
JohnH
johnh wrote:Here is the deal…
Many people survive by locking in their reality….it will not change. We all know someone who fits in to the “Don’t bother me with the facts” type of person. There are tons of them in all organizations. The whole emperors new clothes story highlights this as a common group think outcome. Bottom line many people believe what they need to believe to survive.
In the 80’s doctors refused to believe anything could live in the stomach…so for another decade thousands of people lived with ulcers because medical proffessionals refused to accept otherwise…why? Pride? Financial Gain (you get paid more for treating a disease than you do for curing it)? Who knows…but the CDC had to actively communicate to Doctors the right thing to do to get this changed.
When it comes to philosophy there are no hard facts and no government oversite to push the issues. People setup the scaffold they need to hold their glass house up….The guy in the hall is saying to you “dude….quit f*cking with my scaffold”. People in his position get scared…hell we all did when we were trying to believe the whole mormon story….anything shaking it got rapidly put down as anti propaganda. I think the only thing you might need to watch out for is that you might knock over a few scaffolds accidentally. Not everyone should hear all of the questions about the church….many “can’t handle the truth” yet their lives are so much better than they would be if they were to leave the church because they can’t think from a “stayLDS” perspective…and many people can’t. NOM’s talk about their “shelves crashing”. I believe thats the norm for most people…i think it is the minority that are able to disassemble the shelf and re-use the material to make something useful.
Just yesterday I spoke to a person who was frustrated with his Bishop. They have a Retarded young man from a poor single mom (she is less active) who recieved the aaronic priesthood (the boy is big…like wears size 5x shirts). The mom spent money she didn’t have to get him a nice shirt so he could pass the sacrament…but mom, sinner she is bought light blue. The Bishop of course denied him to be able to pass…and when shown the actual guideline in the guidebook said “well I choose to follow the bretheren”
the guy just sputtered and said “This is th ewords of the bretheren…they said don’t deny this young man”….he says…well ..my leaders say different. There…there is a guy with a fragile scaffold…his hold is so tenuous he can’t let any other perspectives in to his world view…he also asks people who come in with a faith crisis “what is out of order in your life? There must be something you have not repented of”….those guys..if there are any in your stake will not be open to hearing your words…and in my opinion the guy in the hall..he is one of them
JohnH
Great post John. I feel a frustration at not being able to discuss it but a sense of responsibility to not impose the crash on others. Why rock the boat and risk sinking the ship.
As for that Bishop. Needs reporting up the chain. Muppet.
LOL….love that term “Muppet”. Reminds me of the old Dinosaurs series with the newscaster who towes the party line “This is Howard Hand-up-me with the news” johnh wrote:Here is the deal…
Many people survive by locking in their reality….it will not change. We all know someone who fits in to the “Don’t bother me with the facts” type of person. There are tons of them in all organizations. The whole emperors new clothes story highlights this as a common group think outcome. Bottom line many people believe what they need to believe to survive.
In the 80’s doctors refused to believe anything could live in the stomach…so for another decade thousands of people lived with ulcers because medical proffessionals refused to accept otherwise…why? Pride? Financial Gain (you get paid more for treating a disease than you do for curing it)? Who knows…but the CDC had to actively communicate to Doctors the right thing to do to get this changed.
When it comes to philosophy there are no hard facts and no government oversite to push the issues. People setup the scaffold they need to hold their glass house up….The guy in the hall is saying to you “dude….quit f*cking with my scaffold”. People in his position get scared…hell we all did when we were trying to believe the whole mormon story….anything shaking it got rapidly put down as anti propaganda. I think the only thing you might need to watch out for is that you might knock over a few scaffolds accidentally. Not everyone should hear all of the questions about the church….many “can’t handle the truth” yet their lives are so much better than they would be if they were to leave the church because they can’t think from a “stayLDS” perspective…and many people can’t. NOM’s talk about their “shelves crashing”. I believe thats the norm for most people…i think it is the minority that are able to disassemble the shelf and re-use the material to make something useful.
Just yesterday I spoke to a person who was frustrated with his Bishop. They have a Retarded young man from a poor single mom (she is less active) who recieved the aaronic priesthood (the boy is big…like wears size 5x shirts). The mom spent money she didn’t have to get him a nice shirt so he could pass the sacrament…but mom, sinner she is bought light blue. The Bishop of course denied him to be able to pass…and when shown the actual guideline in the guidebook said “well I choose to follow the bretheren”
the guy just sputtered and said “This is th ewords of the bretheren…they said don’t deny this young man”….he says…well ..my leaders say different. There…there is a guy with a fragile scaffold…his hold is so tenuous he can’t let any other perspectives in to his world view…he also asks people who come in with a faith crisis “what is out of order in your life? There must be something you have not repented of”….those guys..if there are any in your stake will not be open to hearing your words…and in my opinion the guy in the hall..he is one of them
JohnH
Ughhhhhhh…. if true that angers me. I think sometimes the sins of the parent being on the heads of the children is because third party people who can’t forgive or follow the spirit of the law.
I did some more training with another SS group in our stake today and like I said last time I told the teachers that we need to teach the kids the truth and I as an example I asked about what they had hear about the band on the blacks and the priesthood. The young teacher said that they hadn’t really heard much but the SS president said he has done a lot of research and the reason the blacks couldn’t have the priesthood was because JS ordained a negro and the lord came to him and said that it was God’s priesthood to be giving out to who he said could have it and that it wasn’t man’s priesthood to ordain blacks at that time. He was a former bishop. I quoted president Hinckley when he said that they didn’t know who started it or why. He got upset that I brought it up and that I tried to correct him. The rest of the meeting didn’t go well but the teachers I think got the point for the most part. I talked about loosing members because of faith crisis and he only said kids have alway been where we loose most church members but we loose a lot less than the other churches. Again I was told that the church is perfect but the members aren’t. I thinks the old guard is not going to want to hear this and that we who try talk about some of these issues are going to have a fight on our hands. DB I hope that you update this as you go because I need some encouragement. “expound on how some members hold expectations of the church that are incompatible with historical truths” I just wanted to add that some leaders’ versions of reality don’t match actual reality either. John D once said that people don’t have a faith crisis because they believe too little, but because they believe too much. They don’t care too little, they care too much. I think there’s a great lesson in that. We become too invested in our wrong thinking to let it go when there is higher enlightenment. And there are plenty of lay members, local leaders, and higher ups who fall into that trap. church0333 wrote:On Wensday night I did trainIng for the stake on some of these issues and I thought it went well , but today the SS president pulled me aside and said he does not understand why I worry about these things and we were not there so we can’t know the truth He said I was just trying to push an agenda. Am I trying to do that? Maybe I am. And mybe that’s not my job. It feels right but do I do it just to push my agenda?
Hmm…this really got me thinking about the term “agenda”. I posted in another thread about how I thought people trying for reform were necessary and good.
The other part of your post i liked was where you said it felt right. I think that’s very important.
I’m not an expert on eastern philosophy but I try to learn from it. My name on here is wu wei or “effortless action” (there are multiple translations). But when is comes to striving for change in the church it can seem paradoxical. Trying to change anything seems to involve effort.
But the fact that you said it felt right I think is the key. You feel moved to try and change things… you probably feel more at peace trying to change things than you would just sitting back and going with the flow. I know for me that when I try to conform I feel completely at dis-ease. It leads to feelings of inadequacy and guilt for not living up to others’ expectations. I feel untrue to myself. I know that Jesus says we need to deny ourselves, take up our crosses, and follow Him. I’m not sure we always interpret this correctly. I don’t think it’s a message that we all just need to conform. I think it’s a message that we need to give ourselves over to the spirit and do what we feel called to do by God. Jesus was anything but a conformist. He did what was right, because it was right, and not because anyone told him to.
But anyways… which involves more effort? Being true to how you feel and trying for change, or denying it and keeping quiet?
I think if your motivation is to change the church to better suit what YOU think it should be so that YOU’RE more comfortable, then that is an agenda and probably not desirable. If your motivation is that you feel more in harmony with yourself and the spirit as you try for change, then it’s not really an agenda… you’re just doing what the spirit moves you to do. Which we’re supposed to, right?
On another note,
I think when people make accusatory statements such as what you mentioned it’s because they are a little afraid. They themselves may feel they are not being true to what they feel and have constructed reasons to justify this disharmony. I think the “scaffold” metaphor is a great one.
I did some more training with another SS group in our stake today and like I said last time I told the teachers that we need to teach the kids the truth and I as an example I asked about what they had hear about the band on the blacks and the priesthood. The young teacher said that they hadn’t really heard much but the SS president said he has done a lot of research and the reason the blacks couldn’t have the priesthood was because JS ordained a negro and the lord came to him and said that it was God’s priesthood to be giving out to who he said could have it and that it wasn’t man’s priesthood to ordain blacks at that time. He was a former bishop. I quoted president Hinckley when he said that they didn’t know who started it or why. He got upset that I brought it up and that I tried to correct him. The rest of the meeting didn’t go well but the teachers I think got the point for the most part. I talked about loosing members because of faith crisis and he only said kids have alway been where we loose most church members but we loose a lot less than the other churches. Again I was told that the church is perfect but the members aren’t. I thinks the old guard is not going to want to hear this and that we who try talk about some of these issues are going to have a fight on our hands. DB I hope that you update this as you go because I need some encouragement.
Next time you do something like this, and I hope you do!!! rather then put them on the spot and ask them why the church did A,B,C; instead simply tell the group what common misconceptions there are around an issue and then pull out the official statements on it so they can see what we think is not always the case. I also back that up by explaining who FAIR is and how at the least they ought to check them as a source before sharing something they are not 100% sure of. Hang in there, changing church culture is not easy. People are defensive and they balk at their long standing stance having to change. But when it comes to urban legends and speculation, we have official policy on our side, and the truth I might add
hawkgrrrl wrote:“expound on how some members hold expectations of the church that are incompatible with historical truths”
We have to help people see that prophets are not perfect, Official Policy and Doctrine are not equal to every word that falls from the lips of a leader, or the words of a book written by a leader even if it is titled “Mormon Doctrine”.
My agenda – to slow down the loss of members due to needless reasons of their false expectations and assumptions not being met.
Thanks for the input. I will be better prepared next time. I really didn’t want to get into a deep discussion about any particular topic but just present the idea that we haven’t been honest all the time when it comes to tough issues at church and that we need to be. I know for now that this is an uphill battle, but a battle that I truly feel I need to fight. I just want people to realize that I am fighting this battle for the church and not against the church. I have family members who have left the church and others that would because of all these issues and feeling like they have lied to, but stay for social, family etc reasons. Just chipping in to say I really like this post and it crystalises something I have been thinking about for a while I think those of us who have either left and come back, or just stayed throughout our faith crisis, are a huge untapped resource to help the leadership with the increasing numbers of others who are having questions. Here in the UK I am hearing of more and more people being called into the bishops office, or going themselves to discuss issues around church history / doctrine, and 9 times out of 10 the bishop (and stake president, and home teacher, even area authority) make a complete pigs ear of the situation and just make things worse.
There has been a lot of discussion on our UK Doubting LDS facebook group, and I think there is a genuine desire amongst the disaffected to help the church out, its just a matter of how do we do that, and who do we speak to?
I have one or two ‘friends’ who are in positions of leadership in the UK LDS Church, so I am going to float the idea, but don’t want to push too hard, as the cynic in me thinks because of the belief in the preisthood, and ‘being the one true church’ anything percived as ‘external advice’ is treated with suspicion.
Brit exmo, please keep us posted. Fight for the church and not against it this is the only way we all don’t come out as cauiltities
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