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Old-Timer wrote:
Let them be angry – but don’t do anything to encourage continued anger – and do everything possible to soothe the anger – and don’t seem condescending to those who are angry – but don’t appear unfeeling either – and make our history accessible in all its messiness – but don’t apologize for everything, since many things need understanding not apologies – but apologize for those things that really were beyond the pail with no reasonable excuse – and distinguish between those things clearly enough for people to realize you aren’t trying to justify or hide but sincerely trying to strike the right balance – etc., etc., etc.
I don’t mean that to be snarky, but I do mean to make a point that is important to me:
This is not an easy task, and we each can make it much harder by demanding detailed actions that are exactly what each of us would love to see – and demanding that they happen all at once – and not seeing or respecting what is being done.
My own request is quite simple:
Recognize what has caused and is causing pain and try to act in a way that lessens and/or eliminates that pain.Frankly, I see that happening at the topmost level recently on a regular basis and in multiple ways. Yes, there are plenty of areas that remain to be addressed, but our part of the request is patience in allowing those areas to be addressed in good time – to recognize and accept the current sincere efforts and extend the attitude we request.
Unfortunately, it will take time for the water to get to the end of all the local rows – and that is the most painful aspect for many people.
decent post.
DB, what’s the Marlin Jensen Virginia quote? I hope the church will be able to do something substantial.
I see the new history.lds.org as a very promising development. The 3 witness page at least mentions Martin Harris had his angel experience later.
But there are historical issues that simply don’t have a reasonable answer. Would the church skip these or will they include them and run circles round them like FAIR (“nothing to see, nothing to see, smoke and mirrors…”) Or… Will they gain massive credibility by saying, yes, this is an issue, we don’t have an answer, sorry.
mackay11 wrote:DB, what’s the Marlin Jensen Virginia quote?
http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2012/01/rescue-plan-to-address-difficulties-of.html Quote:…”Has the church seen the effects of Google on membership? It seems like the people who I talk to about church history are people who find out and leave quickly. Is the church aware of that problem? What about the people who are already leaving in droves?”
“The fifteen men [First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve] really do know, and they really care. And they realize that maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having right now; largely over these issues. We do have another initiative that we have called, “Answers to Gospel Questions”. We are trying to figure out exactly what channels to deliver it in and exactly what format to put it in. But we want to have a place where people can go. We have hired someone that’s in charge of search engine optimization. We realize that people get their information basically from Google. They don’t come to LDS.org. If they get there, it’s through Google. So, we are trying to create an offering that will address these issues and be available for the public at large and to the church leaders, because many of them don’t have answers either. It can be very disappointing to church members. And, for people who are losing their faith, or who have lost it, we hope to regain to the church.”
Quote:often in the church, when someone comes with a bit of a prickly question, he’ll be met with a bishop who number one, doesn’t know the answer. Number two, he snaps and says, ‘Get in line and don’t question the prophet, and get back and do your home teaching.’ And that isn’t helpful in most cases. So, we need to educate our leaders better, I think, to be sympathetic and empathetic and to draw out of these people where they are coming from and what’s brought them to the point they are at. What they have read, what they are thinking is, and try to understand them. Sometimes that alone is enough to help someone through a hard time. But beyond that, I think we really need to figure out a way to live a little bit with people who may never get completely settled.”
cwald wrote:
Okay “billy boy.” Please tell me what you think the apostles are going to do to rescue those in faith crisis. Please tell me what the apostles are going to do to stop the bleeding.Short of conceding and apologizing for past mistakes, and taking responsibility for the pain and the way things are today…it will be a waste of time.
Are they planning on doing that Bill? Are they going to come clean…or continue to make it the “apostates” fault they don’t believe?
My grandma use to sing the song… oh billy boy oh billy boy
I don’t know specifics, only that an apostle and a seventy have promised the church is addressing it and the the effort will be an official church response through helpful internet pages that can be accessed from LDS.ORG and through an effort to help local ward and Stake leaders understand
DBMormon wrote:cwald wrote:
Okay “billy boy.” Please tell me what you think the apostles are going to do to rescue those in faith crisis. Please tell me what the apostles are going to do to stop the bleeding.Short of conceding and apologizing for past mistakes, and taking responsibility for the pain and the way things are today…it will be a waste of time.
Are they planning on doing that Bill? Are they going to come clean…or continue to make it the “apostates” fault they don’t believe?
My grandma use to sing the song… oh billy boy oh billy boy
I don’t know specifics, only that an apostle and a seventy have promised the church is addressing it and the the effort will be an official church response through helpful internet pages that can be accessed from LDS.ORG and through an effort to help local ward and Stake leaders understand
It has, in part, already started.
history.lds.org has the background to the revelations. So far I’ve found it saying that Martin Harris was not present when Whitmer and Cowdery had their 3 Witnesses visions, but had it later alone with Joseph (it doesn’t give the full detail of Harris feeling like he was stopping the process) and it also has an article about ‘Oliver’s Gift’ including a paragraph about divining rods being changed to the gift of Aaron. I’m impressed.
While the spin is quite ‘neat’ to make the comparison to Moses’ rod it does at least cover it all off:
Quote:Oliver Cowdery lived in a culture steeped in biblical ideas, language and practices. The revelation’s reference to Moses likely resonated with him. The Old Testament account of Moses and his brother Aaron recounted several instances of using rods to manifest God’s will (see Ex. 7:9-12; Num. 17:
. Many Christians in Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery’s day similarly believed in divining rods as an instrument for revelation. Cowdery was among those who believed in and used a divining rod.The Lord recognized Oliver’s ability to use a rod: “thou hast another gift which is the gift of working with the rod.”9* Confirming the divinity of this gift, the revelation stated: “Behold there is no other power save God that can cause this thing of Nature to work in your hands for it is the work of God.” If Oliver desired, the revelation went on to say, the Lord would add the gift of translation to the revelatory gifts Oliver already possessed (D&C 8:8-11).
Though we know very few details about Oliver Cowdery’s attempt to translate, it apparently did not go well. His efforts quickly came to naught. In the wake of Oliver’s failure, Joseph Smith received another revelation, counseling Oliver, “Be patient my son, for it is wisdom in me, and it is not expedient that you should translate at this present time.” Oliver was further told he had not understood the process. He was first to “study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right, I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you” (see D&C 9:7-
.*Footnote 9 says: The earliest manuscript of this revelation refers to Oliver Cowdery’s “gift of working with the sprout.” Sidney Rigdon changed “sprout” to “rod” in preparation for the revelation’s publication in the Book of Commandments in 1833. The 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants is the first source to call it “the gift of Aaron.” See Revelation Book 1, p. 13; Book of Commandments 7:3; Doctrine and Covenants (1835), 34:3. The word sprout meant “the end of a branch or shoot” (Noah Webster, American Dictionary of the English Language [New York: S. Converse, 1828]).
http://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-oliver-cowdery?lang=eng The other thing I like about this is it reminds people that section 9 was not simply an instruction on how to get answers to prayers (though it is also useful for that) but specifically on how the translation process happens. Oliver (and by implication Joseph) had to study it out in his mind, i.e. formulate a sentence or paragraph and then seek a witness of whether it feels right or not. That’s the strongest evidence for a ‘loose translation’ or ‘in Joseph’s own structured words.’
Old-Timer wrote:Let them be angry – but don’t do anything to encourage continued anger – and do everything possible to soothe the anger – and don’t seem condescending to those who are angry – but don’t appear unfeeling either – and make our history accessible in all its messiness – but don’t apologize for everything, since many things need understanding not apologies – but apologize for those things that really were beyond the pail with no reasonable excuse – and distinguish between those things clearly enough for people to realize you aren’t trying to justify or hide but sincerely trying to strike the right balance – etc., etc., etc.
I don’t mean that to be snarky, but I do mean to make a point that is important to me:
This is not an easy task, and we each can make it much harder by demanding detailed actions that are exactly what each of us would love to see – and demanding that they happen all at once – and not seeing or respecting what is being done.
My own request is quite simple:
Recognize what has caused and is causing pain and try to act in a way that lessens and/or eliminates that pain.Frankly, I see that happening at the topmost level recently on a regular basis and in multiple ways. Yes, there are plenty of areas that remain to be addressed, but our part of the request is patience in allowing those areas to be addressed in good time – to recognize and accept the current sincere efforts and extend the attitude we request.
Unfortunately, it will take time for the water to get to the end of all the local rows – and that is the most painful aspect for many people.
Ray, thank you for your input. It is getting harder and harder to come up with these talks every month. I am thinking about asking for a release but I hate to quite and if I give up the cause because it would seem like the Pharisees and Sadducees would win.
Fwiw, I have no problem giving talks in church because I focus on what I see as core Gospel principles and refuse to deliver someone else’s talk. Every topic imaginable (and I mean that completely) can be presented in light of a core Gospel principle and can be presented in a charitable, gentle, meek, etc. manner. It’s harder than the template approach, but it’s more rewarding to the presenter and the hearers. I’m not saying all talks have to walk the razor’s edge I just described – not at all. I don’t try to do that. I just try to preach what I see as pure Mormonism. If I were to be released at some point because of that, so be it – but when someone asks me to do something, they get ME. Period. I don’t anticipate being released because of it – frankly, because most people need to hear that type of message to balance out the more formulaic, “easy answer” messages they hear and, therefore, appreciate that type of message.
It’s not just possible, imo. It’s important – and I can be totally true to myself and my beliefs and never once give a talk that crosses any lines that would get me censured in any way. After all, I’m preaching the Gospel – and that is one of the core missions of the Church. I’m sure there have been times when someone listening to a talk I’ve given hasn’t liked everything I’ve said, but the official reactions I’ve gotten have been overwhelmingly positive – and that might be an understatement.
This training is Wednesday night this week…… Wish me luck
DBMormon wrote:This training is Wednesday night this week……
Wish me luck
My heart is with you and I am anxious for the update!
Good luck. I will pray for you. I wish you could talk to the stake leaders in my stake in Illinois. The only active person in my stake that has somewhat of an idea of what people who go through a faith crisis go through is Kevin Kloosterman. Yes, please keep us updated. Quote:Wish me luck
Done – and more.
I LOVE this thread. I am currently a member of our Ward Council and hope for the day this is a presentation for all wards. We live in Cwalds home area and it would do so mudh good to have this addressed by SL.Positive thoughts and gratitude for your efforts DB. Hope it all goes well. Good luck. Let us know how it goes. I guess Elder Holland’s recent talk might be useful content. I am at the stake now…. beginning to get nervous…. show starts in about an hour. Thank you all for your kind words. I will let you know tomorrow how it went. DB
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