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Old-Timer wrote:Quote:
“It doesn’t matter if it feels good; it matters if it is true.”
Sagan was wrong – perhaps not for himself or other individuals, but for millions / billions of people.
In areas where objective truth can be determined and accepted without undue damage, I agree that truth is more important than feeling good – but in areas dealing with hopes, dreams, imaginations, self-worth, etc. feeling good absolutely matters, often FAR more than being right. It’s part of being fully human.
Think larger context Ray. True matters for the big things, not what I am dreaming about today.
Quote:Think larger context Ray.
Again, interesting example of different perspectives. For me, my view is the larger context.
Just wanted to add that this story is presented as truth in the Church History manual for senior primary. (I was recently released from teaching the 11-12 year old girls.) As is the Thomas Marsh cow story and, my personal favorite, the doozy about the old man who stood up in Sunday School and castigated a teacher who had dared to question the leadership of the Martin/Willie handcart companies. Joni wrote:my personal favorite, the doozy about the old man who stood up in Sunday School and castigated a teacher who had dared to question the leadership of the Martin/Willie handcart companies.
Although unsubstantiated the old man story might have really happened (or at least be “based on a true story”). Many people respond to incredible adversity by doubling down on faith thinking that there was a grand design and purpose behind it all. Even if this incident did happen, he was wrong to claim that none of the party questioned the wisdom of the journey – some even later left the church. I don’t mind that these stories are told, I just wish that the alternate versions of these stories were also told.
When we tell these stories as proof that our church is divinely led then, I believe, we do a disservice to the listener.
Incidentally I recently saw a news program that was discussing movies that make the claim of being “based on a true story.”
One of the directors interviewed said that there is a diference between being factual and being true. “True” to him is to stick to the heart or meaning of the narrative even if many of the peripheral “facts” are altered.
Roy wrote:Joni wrote:my personal favorite, the doozy about the old man who stood up in Sunday School and castigated a teacher who had dared to question the leadership of the Martin/Willie handcart companies.
Although unsubstantiated the old man story might have really happened (or at least be “based on a true story”). Many people respond to incredible adversity by doubling down on faith thinking that there was a grand design and purpose behind it all. Even if this incident did happen, he was wrong to claim that none of the party questioned the wisdom of the journey – some even later left the church. I don’t mind that these stories are told, I just wish that the alternate versions of these stories were also told.
When we tell these stories as proof that our church is divinely led then, I believe, we do a disservice to the listener.
Incidentally I recently saw a news program that was discussing movies that make the claim of being “based on a true story.”
One of the directors interviewed said that there is a diference between being factual and being true. “True” to him is to stick to the heart or meaning of the narrative even if many of the peripheral “facts” are altered.
My question about that story has always been: If someone (who?) had the foresight to write down every word of a fairly lengthy, yet apparently off-the-cuff Sunday School comment… why didn’t they jot down the name of the speaker?
The inclusion of the Old Man Handcart story and the Brigham Looks Like Joseph story in the Primary manual both seem to support the same point: that our leaders are infallible and must not be questioned. And I, well, question that. I don’t remember how I handled the JS/BY succession story but when I taught my Primary girls the handcart lesson, I skipped over all the glurge and the unattributed quotes. I did emphasize to them that handcarts were largely a desperation measure and I also mentioned that several times that dying of typhoid/cholera/childbirth was fairly par for the course in the 1840s/1850s and not necessarily a sign of the pioneers’ ‘specialness.’
Cadence wrote:Old-Timer wrote:Cadence wrote:Carl Sagan said “it doesn’t matter if it feels good, it matters if it is true. That is where I differ with most. All the feelings about the church do not matter to me unless it is true. Since there is no way to prove that I must be a skeptic until there is more information. I use to take it all literally. When I could no longer take it as literal I could no longer believe.
Sagan was wrong – perhaps not for himself or other individuals, but for millions / billions of people.
In areas where objective truth can be determined and accepted without undue damage, I agree that truth is more important than feeling good – but in areas dealing with hopes, dreams, imaginations, self-worth, etc. feeling good absolutely matters, often FAR more than being right. It’s part of being fully human.
Think larger context Ray. True matters for the big things, not what I am dreaming about today.
Cadence, I agree truth matters in many things. If you believe aliens are going to come transform the human race three weeks from next Tuesday so you stop paying all your bills and fulfilling other basic responsibilities — then you are going to run into obvious problems. That is a case where Sagan’s words obviously apply. If on the other hand you believe people you highly respect are rooting for your achievement in school or some other meaningful activity, or if you believe they will respect and love you no matter the outcome – then your belief can help produce positive feelings and results whether it is actually true or not.Placebo treatments are also a good example. Does it not matter whether they have any real medicine when the patient is seeing positive results? I’m talking about the few cases where the patient is told they have been taking a placebo but they still want it because it helps them feel better. There are situations where the results become the overriding truth, I think that is what Ray is getting at.
I also realize different personalities exist in this world. Just as some of us will be eternally perplexed at those who insist on binary decisions (black/white, on/off, right/wrong) we must realized our distaste for the binary must be just as distasteful to them.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:Think larger context Ray.
Again, interesting example of different perspectives. For me, my view is the larger context.
Yes, and no. Evolution and creationism really don’t matter to me that much in my daily life. I don’t wander around wondering if my genes are handed down from fish and slugs… what does matter to me is the social gospel, and I suspect right-wingers use creationism to deflect from our duty to the poor and needy in the present hour.
Likewise, whether BY’s face went funny or not is not a big deal to me. I’ve always thought that story was probably a crock, but BY became head of our church, and it probably wouldn’t be where it is today if it hadn’t had been for him… crackpot ideas aside.
SamBee wrote:
Yes, and no. Evolution and creationism really don’t matter to me that much in my daily life. I don’t wander around wondering if my genes are handed down from fish and slugs… what does matter to me is the social gospel, andI suspect right-wingers use creationism to deflect from our duty to the poor and needy in the present hour.
SamBee, would you mind explaining the underlined part.
I do believe that right-wingers tend to neglect the social gospel but I’m not sure how that correlates to creationism. I’ve always linked it to eschatology. If you believe this world is going up in flames or that God is going to swoop in and make everything perfect with no assistance from man, it’s easy to shrug and say “Why bother making the world a better place?”
Quote:SamBee, would you mind explaining the underlined part.
I think that by emphasizing one thing, they are playing down another.
For example, one could emphasize all the blood-and-thunder stuff in the Old Testament to deflect attention from what Jesus says about caring for folk.
I think some of these right-wingers, the televangelist variety, are very tied up in the notion of making money and getting rich. If you go on about the world being created in seven days all the time, you’re going to create a brouhaha from the opposition that’s going to take up so much of the debate that little time’s left for discussing how Jesus said “blessed are the poor”, and “it is harder for a rich man…” etc, and if you’re continually having discussions about how dinosaurs are either fake, misunderstood or contemporary with ancient humans, you’re going to have less emphasis on helping the homeless etc. It’s like the anti-Salvation Army in a way. Emphasis on wealth and blessings, not looking after your neighbor and his/her health.
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