- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
We talk a lot about trials of our faith here, but I’ve settled on the idea that mine is not a trial of faith. It’s a “trial of commitment”. Although I don’t know for sure about the BoM, JS story, and how One True Church can have so many historical anomalies, this doesn’t drive my trials. I still believe in the spiritual experiences I’ve had that led me to accept the Church in the first place, and that is the basis of my interest in staying active.
It’s
experiencesin the Church that challenge my commitment — culture, behavior of others, etcetera. And sometimes the sacrifices seem to be more than I’m willing to give. those are the roots of the challenges I face — not a lack of faith. How about you — have the trials of faith you’ve experienced been truly trials of faith, or are they more trials of commitment? And is it even important to distinguish between the two?
That’s a really interesting question, SD. I’d like to add another type of trial:
Quote:Trial of acceptance
That might be the root cause of some people’s trial of commitment – not feeling accepted by the group.
You know, this post might be the reason I think Elder Wirthlin’s “Concern for the One” is so powerful. He identified some of the reasons people leave as feeling like they think differently (trial of faith), those who act differently (trial of acceptance), those who have sinned (trial of faith and/or acceptance) and those who are tired (trial of commitment). What I love about the talk is that he identified the central issue as being with those who do NOT leave – that they need to change in such a way that those who do leave don’t feel like they need to leave – that “true concern” is about acceptance and love, not necessarily changing someone.
Anyway, just free-flowing there as thoughts hit me. Haven’t taken the time to really ponder the connection.
SilentDawning wrote:We talk a lot about trials of our faith here, but I’ve settled on the idea that mine is not a trial of faith…It’s a “trial of commitment”. Although I don’t know for sure about the BoM, JS story, and how One True Church can have so many historical anomalies, this doesn’t drive my trials.
I still believe in the spiritual experiences I’ve had that led me to accept the Church in the first place, and that is the basis of my interest in the staying active…It’s experiencesin the Church that challenge my commitment — culture, behavior of others, etcetera. And sometimes the sacrifices seem to be more than I’m willing to give. those are the roots of the challenges I face — not a lack of faith…How about you — have the trials of faith you’ve experienced been truly trials of faith, or are they more trials of commitment?And is it even important to distinguish between the two? In my case, the Church has given me both trials to deal with at the same time. The result is that I don’t have enough faith in the Church to justify the level of commitment that the Church asks for and expects out of members. I feel like I still have faith in God and enough commitment to do what I honestly think is right most of the time; I’m just not convinced that what the Church is telling me to do really is right or worthwhile in many cases.
I guess I just need a better reason to justify some of these expectations and heavy demands than simply the idea that I should believe and do all this just because the prophets said so. The problem is that they also said Zelph was a white Lamanite, Adam is God, men will never go to the Moon, M-word makes people become gay, etc.; so I just don’t see why exactly I am out of line to take most of what they say with a grain of salt.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:In my case, the Church has given me both trials to deal with at the same time. The result is that I don’t have enough faith in the Church to justify the level of commitment that the Church asks for and expects out of members. I feel like I still have faith in God and enough commitment to do what I honestly think is right most of the time; I’m just not convinced that what the Church is telling me to do really is right or worthwhile in many cases.
I guess I just need a better reason to justify some of these expectations and heavy demands than simply the idea that I should believe and do all this just because the prophets said so. The problem is that they also said Zelph was a white Lamanite, Adam is God, men will never go to the Moon, M-word makes people become gay, etc.; so I just don’t see why exactly I am out of line to take most of what they say with a grain of salt.
+1
SilentDawning wrote:It’s a “trial of commitment”. Although I don’t know for sure about the BoM, JS story, and how One True Church can have so many historical anomalies, this doesn’t drive my trials. I still believe in the spiritual experiences I’ve had that led me to accept the Church in the first place, and that is the basis of my interest in the staying active.
Me 2. I often refer to it in mormon jargon as enduring to the end, despite my doubts and my imperfections.
I think there is strong merit in what DA said — that trials of faith can lead to lack of commitment. As we know, faith motivates us to action, so if your faith is hurt, so is your motivation to make sacrifices. However, how do you explain the disconnect when you have faith, but no commitment? It can’t be rationally justified in any way, because if you believe something, you should do it. However, there are a host of personal reasons — primarily personal weakness — which stand in the way of translating faith into action.
I know John Dehlin is interested in learning to help people stay active. I thought an interesting model might be to classify people’s problems in a grid of [low faith: low-commitment], [High faith:low commitment], [Low-Faith, High-Commitment]. High Faith-High Commitment isn’t a problem area, although there may be questions about sustainability (that has been my case). Each section of the grid probably leads to different intervention strategies to help people remain active in the Church.
I think this site is aimed primarly at people in the low-faith, leading to low-commitment category. The
How to Stay in the Churcharticle seems to point primarily to faith issues, seeking to help people find ways of sustaining their commitment in the Church in spite of them. In this sense it caters to the Low-Faith, Low-Commitment Crowd. An interesting category is Low Faith — High Commitment. I think this typifies the Stage 5 level in Fowler’s stages of faith. You don’t believe the party line anymore — you have high commitment for reasons other than faith. In a way, I think it takes faith in traditional doctrines out of the equation almost entirely, placing it elsewhere….
Which category do you fall into now? Did you make it out of Low-Faith, Low-Commitment into the High-Faith, HIgh Commitment category, and how did you do it (if you did?).
DevilsAdvocate wrote:I guess I just need a better reason to justify some of these expectations and heavy demands than simply the idea that I should believe and do all this just because the prophets said so. The problem is that they also said Zelph was a white Lamanite, Adam is God, men will never go to the Moon, M-word makes people become gay, etc.; so I just don’t see why exactly I am out of line to take most of what they say with a grain of salt.
yup! pass the salt!
f4h1
Hmmm? I’m not sure I fit into any of the categories. Well SD, I guess according to your definitions, I will once again be the “weird” guy, even on this site, because of your definitions I would probably have to fall into the low-faith, high-commitmentcategory. Weird right? I have absolutely NO FAITH in the the church organization as far as government and salvation is concerned – it’s just a pathway, one of many, that one can use to find god, yet, because of some unique situations of living in a very small branch in a very isolated area of the United States, I am kinda compelled to have “high-commitment” to it ie,
several callingsand leadership positions, very active – and even a full tithe payer (officially on the records at least —according to my own definition of the commandment anyway). Of course I don’t really consider myself to be stage 5, and I certainly have no intentions of being committed enough to get a TR or wearing the white shirt or forgoing a beer on the weekends etc etc. How do I do it — the branch is desperate for leadership and spiritual minds, and I really have no choice if I want my kids to have some of the advantages of the church – because really if I don’t do my part – the branch will most likely fold.
cwald wrote:Hmmm? I’m not sure I fit into any of the categories. Well SD, I guess according to your definitions, I will once again be the “weird” guy, even on this site, because of your definitions I would probably have to fall into the
low-faith, high-commitmentcategory. Weird right? I don’t think that’s weird at all, but then again, I also think ketchup on my oatmeal isn’t weird either (just kidding, I feel weird too — just look at my avatar — dark animal that doesnt’ exist in real life).
But seriously, I think I addressed that category in my post above. It appears that in your case, Stage 5 is replaced with a sense of duty and altruism toward family members who get the benefits of the Church experience. I think these can be powerful motivators for some people.
Well maybe. I don’t know. I don’t really believe that I have faith in the church, and I don’t feel real committed either. I mean, if a guy isn’t even willing to wear a white shirt, just how committed to the program can he really be? SilentDawning wrote:I think there is strong merit in what DA said — that trials of faith can lead to lack of commitment. As we know,
faith motivates us to action, so if your faith is hurt, so is your motivation to make sacrifices.However,
how do you explain the disconnect when you have faith, but no commitment?It can’t be rationally justified in any way, because if you believe something, you should do it. However, there are a host of personal reasons — primarily personal weakness — which stand in the way of translating faith into action. …I thought an interesting model might be to classify people’s problems in a grid…I think this site is aimed primarly at people in the low-faith, leading to low-commitment category. An interesting category is Low Faith — High Commitment. I think this typifies the Stage 5 level in Fowler’s stages of faith. You don’t believe the party line anymore — you have high commitment for reasons other than faith.
Which category do you fall into now?Did you make it out of Low-Faith, Low-Commitment into the High-Faith, HIgh Commitment category, and how did you do it (if you did?). I guess I don’t really like the low faith/low commitment label because I feel like I actually have above average faith and commitment to do the right thing (based on my own understanding) compared to most people in the world. Rather than loss of faith I see it as more of a completely justified re-direction of faith toward God instead of trying to maintain unreasonable and unrealistic faith in fallible men and the written word (false idols). It only looks like low faith/low commitment to hardcore TBMs or Mormon apologists because they still think this level of commitment to the Church is really worthwhile when I just don’t see the point.
When I had high faith in the Church but low commitment it was mostly because I didn’t think any sacrifices for the Church would really do any good (for me) because I thought I wouldn’t ever make it to the Celestial kingdom anyway so I basically gave up. I think some TBMs also justify lapses in commitment as simply taking a break for a while with the intention to “repent” of their laziness later and I can’t say I blame them because the Church is so demanding in terms of time, money, and strict rules that it definitely wears some people out.
Even now that I have almost no faith in the Church if I could really see what good some of the sacrifices the Church asks for would actually accomplish then it would be much easier to feel good about it. Instead, I feel like going along with everything they say would just be encouraging the Church to continue to do more of the same like perpetuating many myths and unnecessary traditions that I strongly disagree with. That’s why trying to avoid offending any TBMs I have to deal with is about as far as I can go in support of the Church at this point.
Quote:Even now that I have almost no faith in the Church if I could really see what good some of the sacrifices the Church asks for would actually accomplish then it would be much easier to feel good about it. Instead, I feel like going along with everything they say would just be encouraging the Church to continue to do more of the same like perpetuating many myths and unnecessary traditions that I strongly disagree with. That’s why trying to avoid offending any TBMs I have to deal with is about as far as I can go in support of the Church at this point.
There is a section in the Book of MOrmon where one of the prophets (Moroni, or Mormon) indicated that “he labored, but without faith”. In his case, it was due to the unrighteousness of the people around him. I have experienced that in my former callings. I don’t labor which much faith when it comes to activation any longer. I tried really hard for 3 years and the only people who came back were the ones who had already made the decision to do so. We lifted them further, but the trigger was their own inner desire.
Sadly, I think if I’m ever in a position to do activation, my efforts will center on putting significant resources into the people who decide to come back on their own accord, and to leave the people alone who have made decisions to stay away — but stay in contact with them with letters expressing concern. It’s not as if we’re hurting for things to do in the Church — so placing efforts into the places where you’re likely to get the best results is critical.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:I guess I don’t really like the low faith/low commitment label because I feel like I actually have above average faith and commitment to do the right thing (based on my own understanding) compared to most people in the world. Rather than loss of faith I see it as more of a completely justified re-direction of faith toward God instead of trying to maintain unreasonable and unrealistic faith in fallible men and the written word (false idols). It only looks like low faith/low commitment to hardcore TBMs or Mormon apologists because they still think this level of commitment to the Church is really worthwhile when I just don’t see the point.
Not a loss of faith…but a redirection of faith…I like that concept. Thanks DA!:clap:
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.