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OK….i’ve seen this topic danced around a bit, especially when dissecting the LGBT discussion with the new policies and all that. I am surprised at the diversity of opinion on this one, but I want to ask flat out for perspective on this: is there sexual relations in heaven?
I think there is, but I don’t know the nature of that. My reasons are among the following:
1. There are male and female genders in heaven. I believe this completely because there have been NDE events in my own family, and I trust those people and what they experienced. If there is not sexual relations, then it appears there is a pretty big waste of effort from God to have male/female individuals.
2. I was taught that Adam and Eve are literal children, born into
immortalitywhereas Jesus was born in the fleshwhich is symbolic of born into mortality. 3. We are called over and over the
literal offspringof God. Along with that, through various means, we are taught there is a MIH. I rely often on NDE things I have read, authors I have met personally who I have pinned down with direct questions while I looked in their eyes for even the smallest trace of lying, only to get very clear and direct answers, and other sources outside mainstream LDS.
My opinion is there is sexual relations in the next life. I don’t know the nature, like I said above, but I believe something happens.
Opinions?
PS. I really am curious about this topic. I don’t mean in any way to be disrespectful to bring it up…but this one intrigues me a LOT. Please share your thoughts…..
Rob4Hope wrote:OK….i’ve seen this topic danced around a bit, especially when dissecting the LGBT discussion with the new policies and all that…I am surprised at the diversity of opinion on this one, but I want to ask flat out for perspective on this: is there sexual relations in heaven?…I rely often on NDE things I have read, authors I have met personally who I have pinned down with direct questions while I looked in their eyes for even the smallest trace of lying, only to get very clear and direct answers, and other sources outside mainstream LDS…My opinion is there is sexual relations in the next life. I don’t know the nature, like I said above, but I believe something happens…Opinions?…PS. I really am curious about this topic. I don’t mean in any way to be disrespectful to bring it up…but
this one intrigues me a LOT. Please share your thoughts… Some scripture passages that are typically conveniently ignored or explained away in the Church are the following that appear to directly discredit the idea of eternal marriage at least.
Matthew 22:23-30 wrote:23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then,
at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?” 29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.Personally I don’t interpret scriptures literally in most cases but I definitely believe in life after death mostly because of several ghost stories, out-of-body experiences, etc. that I have heard or read about where I don’t believe people were lying or misinterpreting some figment of their imagination including a few people I have known personally. However, I’m not sure what to think about the idea of sex in the afterlife. I could see it being an essential part of who we are spiritually or simply a product of our animal instincts and physiology that possibly only exists in the physical world.
As far as I’m concerned, any answers about this are based mostly on speculation or hearsay anyway so I wouldn’t put too much stock in a specific outcome either way especially in the case of the claim that sex supposedly only exists in the Celestial Kingdom or possibly only the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and in any lower levels of heaven you will supposedly lose your sex organs. It seems like such a crude example of the Church relying on the old carrot-and-stick motivational model that I have a hard time believing this is anything more than a man-made attempt to manipulate people, tell people what they want to hear, etc.
I’ll preface this with my overall opinion that we know very very little about the next life, even if with mormon prophets we feel there is some revelation on it, we don’t know what heaven is like enough to know why we would need certain things (like eating or sex or sleep), or if there are better eternal ways in heaven with perfect bodies. But…overall…my opinion is: No.
Just because we have needs in this life, doesn’t mean those needs are eternal. Once we introduce the unknown concept of “perfect resurrected bodies” then that changes everything.
My thinking for this is along the lines:
Fire for example: Are we going to need any kind of fire in heaven for anything? (We won’t be cooking, we won’t be cold, we won’t need light from it)
When the needs change (and I can’t see we “need” fire) then although fire can happen, we won’t need it. We get our light and heat from other sources. Fire is just how it is done in this life, and I think procreation is probably the same. Without blood and biology and all kinds of earthly stuff that happens now in this life. The best thing about sex within marriage is the security and closeness and one-ness of intercourse. Security, closeness and one-ness can be had in other ways, removing a necessary need for the earthly practice of coitus. Creation of spirits and worlds and bodies…same thing.
Maybe hell will have blood and fire and a lot of sex?
😯 Just kidding…I don’t believe in hell.My secondary idea for supporting this theory of mine that there is no sex in heaven….Joseph Smith saw Moroni with a loose tunic and open chest and bare hands and feet. If God knew there was sex going on up in heaven…there would be strict modest tunic wearing guidelines!
:angel: …OK, a little tongue in cheek for that one, but just as good as any theory as we can only guess and have no idea what heaven will be like in the eternities.I hope I’m wrong…I would love eternity with sex, brats and sauerkraut, sports, motorcycles, and hiking mountains. I just think those are things of this world that will not go with us in the next world, which is why we must detach from those worldly things, and learn to be happy and productive without the things that tempt us physically in this world, or we will live in hell for eternity…wanting something we cannot have for eternity (symbol: fire and brimstone).
Holy cow…I sure hope eternity doesn’t include monthly menstrual cycles and pain of childbirth for my wife for eternity. There has to be a better heaven than that.
Heber13 wrote:I just think those are things of this world that will not go with us in the next world, which is why
we must detach from those worldly things, and learn to be happy and productive without the things that tempt us physically in this world, or we will live in hell for eternity…wanting something we cannot have for eternity (symbol: fire and brimstone).
Heber, I want to key off something you said here. I have felt a trend, some of it housed in what feels like subtle doctrine taught over years, and definitely in not so subtle cultural settings, that supports sexuality as something in this world only. Because of that, once children are born (this is one pathway I have heard), the most essential thing people can do is eliminate sexuality completely. Why?…because it is of this world, and learning to remove it from our lives will make it more palpable in the next.
This is, IMHO, a type of Zen thinking: by eliminating the essential desire in the first place, one can no longer be hurt or disappointed when the subsequent act doesn’t follow; no desire leads to no disappointment.
Anyway, what I am saying is I pick up on what you have said here, and there are several people I know who believe this as well. This is, from my observation, a common belief in many circles. Thanks for sharing this. It is interesting.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:As far as I’m concerned, any answers about this are based mostly on speculation or hearsay anyway so I wouldn’t put too much stock in a specific outcome either way especially in the case of the claim that sex supposedly only exists in the Celestial Kingdom or possibly only the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and in any lower levels of heaven you will supposedly lose your sex organs. It seems like such a crude example of the Church relying on the old carrot-and-stick motivational model that I have a hard time believing this is anything more than a man-made attempt to manipulate people, tell people what they want to hear, etc.
Arguments for and against sexuality in the next life have been used, IMHO, as a whipping post for manipulation in a LOT of areas. In some instances it is a motivation for CK life and eventual pleasure there. Examples would be: “If you don’t live the law of chastity here, you will be seperate there, and never able to have sexual relations. So, you better control yourself NOW.” and “If you are LGBT and just live the LOC, everything will be fixed there, and you will be able to have normal (whatever that means) heterosexual relations.” This last argument, which I have heard, is most offensive to me.
On the flip side, there are arguments used to discount sexuality in this life as well from other perspectives. Examples would be a man I know whose wife says: “look, there is not going to be a bunch of sex in the next life, so the sooner you leave me alone and just get over it, the better things will be for everyone.”
In virtually each case, the idea is to eliminate the experience on this side of the veil. It is the old “pleasure problem” I’ve brought up before. DA,…your statements make sense, and I understand this side of things.
From what you Heber and DA have said, both are in agreement we know very little about that side. And, it is interesting that there is so much speculation about sexuality over there.
Question to expand a little on this thread: if there is no sexuality on the next side of the veil, why then is marriage essential for CK exhaltation?
Good thought. As long as not taken too far. I think we detach from food so we are not glutinous but not so much we are anorexic Since many in life have circumstances requiring it, many will live celibate. But they can find they can be happy all the same. There are even some things that it will simplify their life because of it.
But that is not my life now. Healthy and frequent sex is what I enjoy. I have no idea if that will follow me through my older years or not or into eternity.
Heber13 wrote:I have no idea if that will follow me through my … into eternity.
Yep.
Do you think things would be easier to contextualize, like eternal marriage, if we actually knew this?
I believe our theology strongly implies sex in the afterlife for those in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. All the talk ofmarriage, eternal parents, eternal Iincrease, law of chastity and no SSM, this social order exists in the next life, etc. I mean what’s the big deal about all these sex rules and marriage rules if disappears after we’re dead. I don’t think it will happen (which makes me sad because it’s so dang fun) but our doctrine certainly leaves it as a possibility if not a certainty.
I agree RR that implications from our point of view are there. Why have rules? Because they help our society today. If they don’t help our heavenly society, they won’t be needed. Is Word of Wisdom needed in heaven?
Rob4Hope wrote:Do you think things would be easier to contextualize, like eternal marriage, if we actually knew this?
Yes, I think so. I think SSM also.Heber13 wrote:Why have rules? Because they help our society today. If they don’t help our heavenly society, they won’t be needed. Is Word of Wisdom needed in heaven?
I don’t disagree with your statement about rules. However it seems like gender, sex, marriage are more fundamental to our doctrine, vs say the WofW or Tithing. Everything in our church seems an order of magnitude less important than eternal companions and eternal children. Gender is crucially important and part of our eternal identity according the the proclamation (which sometimes seems to transcend scripture now).
JS’s groundbreaking revelations were about eternal families and eternal marriages and the nature of God. The temple has gender and marriage everywhere. Women and men are separated, wear different clothing, make similar but slightly different promises. The culminating ordinances of the gospel are done with members of the opposite sex (sealing, 2nd anointing). The whole reason getting married as gay couples is now considered “apostasy” is because it is so fundamentally contrary to our doctrine. The implication is that God couldn’t be God if he were married to a male. Why gender in the eternities, why marriage at all, why marriage only between man/woman in the eternities if, why eternal perfect bodies, if the only reason is to create and procreate asexually?
I believe that’s the where the logic of our theology leads.
ya…that makes sense. Word of Wisdom isn’t grounds for apostasy, is it? I think you got my point about societal rules, but maybe WoW isn’t a good example. But sometimes I’m not so sure about the logic in our theology. It seems to introduce new questions and problems to think about.
Roadrunner wrote:why marriage only between man/woman in the eternities
…especially when the earlier prophets used logic and ancient scripture to teach polygamy and building kingdoms in heaven through the priesthood lines. Now it is apostasy to be polygamous because it is without the prophet’s consent. Heaven didn’t change, but rules for apostasy did. Perhaps it is the same with other stuff.
It feels like it moves towards women being baby factories for eternity. I like to think of more exalting reasons for marriage in the eternities. Sex and creation in the eternities puzzles me, but I see the church seem to point that way as the design of our existence to be gods. Maybe I just don’t like going there as it gets fuzzier the further it gets from the simple gospel truths.
Quote:Rob4Hope wrote:
“I have felt a trend, some of it housed in what feels like subtle doctrine taught over years, and definitely in not so subtle cultural settings, that supports sexuality as something in this world only. Because of that, once children are born (this is one pathway I have heard), the most essential thing people can do is eliminate sexuality completely. Why?…because it is of this world, and learning to remove it from our lives will make it more palpable in the next.”
I haven’t come across that trend. It sounds miserable. Who would sign up for that??
We are told that marriage is eternal. I cannot imagine being around my DH in this life or the next and not making full use of all body parts the good lord gave us. God gave us a gift, it would be inappropriate to not make full use of that gift.
When we die, if no sex is allowed in heaven, they can just throw us down a level or two .. Eventually we’ll find a room.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:As far as I’m concerned, any answers about this are based mostly on speculation or hearsay anyway so I wouldn’t put too much stock in a specific outcome either way especially in the case of the claim that sex supposedly only exists in the Celestial Kingdom or possibly only the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and in any lower levels of heaven you will supposedly lose your sex organs. It seems like such a crude example of the Church relying on the old carrot-and-stick motivational model that I have a hard time believing this is anything more than a man-made attempt to manipulate people, tell people what they want to hear, etc.
If I were a betting man I’d put my money on the sex being
betterin the lower kingdoms. Rob4Hope wrote:Heber, I want to key off something you said here. I have felt a trend, some of it housed in what feels like subtle doctrine taught over years, and definitely in not so subtle cultural settings, that supports sexuality as something in this world only. Because of that, once children are born (this is one pathway I have heard), the most essential thing people can do is eliminate sexuality completely. Why?…because it is of this world, and learning to remove it from our lives will make it more palpable in the next.
That’s one way of looking at it. The other way, I better make sure to get sex out of my system now while I still can. If we live long enough doesn’t a waning libido take care of this little problem for us? How many octogenarians still have regular sex. (
:sick: ) And yet old people continue to have reasons to stay together.This thread reminds me of the following comic:
[img]http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF005-Billiards_in_Heaven.gif [/img] Nobody knows. But I hope our perfect bodies are relieved of that need forever.
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