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Feel free to start a thread on alternative (or alien) origins of humankind and gods if you want. There’s nothing wrong with that. We just put limits having too many links in a post, and excessively long quoted material (especially if copyrighted). I’ve read a lot on that topic too over the years (Zecharia Sitchin, Graham Hancock, Michael Cremo, Erik von Daniken, etc.).
That gets pretty far off topic for this thread though.
Wow, I just read Cwald’s post above. Sounds like they’ve got it bad in that particular unit. For me, the whole white shirt thing was a minor cultural expectation and not a “either conform to the culture or get lost” issue. I wore a blue shirt all over the place right up until they called me to be a counselor in the Bishopric — in a ward that teeming with lawyers, millionaires, accountants, senior managers and such. It wasn’t a big deal. The worse that happened is that no one believed I was a High Priest and put me in Elder’s Quorum for home teaching. They also questioned what I was doing in HP group once, but nicely. I explained I was ordained a high priest over 10 years ago…. You did the right thing in not losing your cool though, and just walking away. Regardless of the nature of the conversation — regardless of what you said, there is no excuse for a leader to raise their voice to someone in public (or private) over an issue like this. He who loses his cool loses the war.
You have my empathy Cwald, you really do.
I’m wondering, is there anything you might have done to bring the whole situation to a soft landing? Soft landings are something I’ve been trying to work on in a variety of situations — like when I’m trying to sell someting and I get rejected, or when I would ask someone to do something as a priesthood leader, and they would reject me rudely. I’m not sure what it is in this case, and I also recognize being sat down and quizzed, and labelled rebellious etcetera isn’t exactly inspiring.
SilentDawning wrote:Wow, I just read Cwald’s post above. Sounds like they’ve got it bad in that particular unit.
Small branch that fluxuates between 20-50 people on any given week. Many die-hard orthodox believers mixed in with converts, investigators, and part-member families. I’m one of the few RMs and one of the few who probably really understands the faith, but unfortunately I “don’t believe it” so to speak, which makes me “suspect” and very ineffective at leadership positions and non-influential in the over schemes of things. I’m just “worker” within the branch.
My wife was kind of upset about the whole incident, and told me on the way home from church, “Why don’t you just wear the damn white shirt, and when they ask you to bless the sacrament, say no, that you don’t feel worthy and/or that you’re not in the right frame of mind…” Haha. Maybe I will do just that!
cwald wrote:when they ask you to bless the sacrament, say no, that you don’t feel worthy and/or that you’re not in the right frame of mind…” Haha. Maybe I will do just that!
Please, no. Don’t do that. Why must we play along and define ourselves as defective? You are not defective. You are fine, and this is your church too.
cwald wrote:Then he starts in on “Elder Oaks says we need to address our leaders with their proper title, president etc. and that I need to stop calling folks by their first name.
This is troubling Pharisaic behavior that indicates a sickness in your branch. I am very sorry. Jesus was very clear on the point of titles. “Don’t use honorifics. Only God deserves the honorific, and only a true Master deserves to be called Master.” The rest of us are just Brother and Sister. So drop the first name and call them all Brother, just to be nice and formal as they want. But don’t fear man more than God and resort to the honorifics of “President” etc.
I understand better now, cwald, why my ward is a fantasy world for you. I wish I could do more, but you have my love and mention in my thoughts and prayers. If “Brother Joseph” was good enough for Joseph Smith . . .
Fwiw, I sign all my e-mails to other members of the church, even the Stake Presidency, “Ray”. If someone consistently signs theirs as “Brother/Sister _____” – I address them that way, but I still sign, “Ray”.
Old-Timer wrote:I understand better now, cwald, why my ward is a fantasy world for you. I wish I could do more, but you have my love and mention in my thoughts and prayers.
If “Brother Joseph” was good enough for Joseph Smith . . .
Fwiw, I sign all my e-mails to other members of the church, even the Stake Presidency, “Ray”. If someone consistently signs theirs as “Brother/Sister _____” – I address them that way, but I still sign, “Ray”.
I call everyone by their first name unless they are the Bishop. Everyone else is on a first name basis. I do fall into using Brother and Sister when I’ve forgotten their first names,. however. I see nothing wrong with this….
Brain — I didn’t mean to completely high-jack this thread,”steal your thunder” – I just needed to vent and feel sorry for myself a little bit, and this seemed like the place to do it. Sorry about that. I kind of think that, much like your story this weekend, I feel bad about what happened and I knew better than to say what I did. I’ve been pretty good and just keeping my mouth shut, I just let the whole situation “get to me.”
I also have done a lot of thinking/praying about this for the last 24 hours – and like someone said, our unit is “sick” and I don’t deny that I’m at least a small part of the cause for that. I don’t have the luxury of sitting in the back row and keeping a low profile. As you can see, the whole blue shirt is just my way of trying to hang on to some semblance of sanity. And in small branches, it doesn’t take a whole lot of contention to disrupt the whole order of things.
I’m getting the impression that, yes, the branch needs me to function, but if I have become more of a “distraction” than help, I have very few options left. I’m not going to “conform” and do the whole mormon culture thing and go back to orthodoxy and orthodox living. I cannot go back and just “live the lie” like that. It would kill me. It would kill my spirit. I cannot do it. So I guess, if i am a distraction, and I’m not “welcome” and I am doing more harm than good to the faithful stage 3 mormons in the branch, who are basically running the whole thing — I probably need to step back and remove myself – to prevent furthering the sickness. Perhaps the branch will heal within the stage 3 perimeters, and be of more service to more people. I don’t know? I don’t know what else I can do. This will be a very difficult decision for me, as I do have four callings, I feel an obligation to god, and I feel like I am a bridge to many non-member part time families, and I do have a faithful wife and three teens/pre-teen kids who are active at this time. D@mn.
cwald wrote:Brain — I didn’t mean to completely high-jack this thread,”steal your thunder” – I just needed to vent and feel sorry for myself a little bit, and this seemed like the place to do it. Sorry about that.
I probably need to step back and remove myself – to prevent furthering the sickness. Perhaps the branch will heal within the stage 3 perimeters, and be of more service to more people. I don’t know? I don’t know what else I can do. This will be a very difficult decision for me, as I do have four callings, I feel an obligation to god, and I feel like I am a bridge to many non-member part time families, and I do have a faithful wife and three teens/pre-teen kids who are active at this time. D@mn.
It wouldn’t surprise me if you’re smarting right now cWald. I would try to put this on the backburner, notwithstanding how important it is, and decide what you’re going to do after everyone has a chance to reflect on what happened. Also, it wouldn’t surprise me if there is another conversation about it with the leaders. You might want to prepare yourself for that, and come up with a number of possible game plans….
cwald, is there anyone in the stake in a position of leadership with whom you would feel comfortable talking about your situation – NOT in a “can you believe what they did to me” way, but rather in a “I really want to serve and help in any way I can, but I have a lot of things to work out right now – so I need to be allowed to worship as I can at this time” way? If not, have you considered talking with your BP and just saying simply, “I really want to serve and help in this branch, but right now I just can’t take being yelled at when I come to church. Can I be treated the way we treat investigators – lovingly and accepting of their weaknesses and struggles?”
If you can’t do that, how close is the ward you would attend if the branch were dissolved? Have you considered simply attending there for a couple of weeks, at least? Can you do that without feeling guilty – since you aren’t the one “causing” this situation?
Just some random thoughts.
cwald wrote:I feel an obligation to god, and I feel like I am a bridge to many non-member part time families
We need more bridges. How else are the people who really need to be there and could benefit the most ever going to feel welcome. Maybe your only obligation to God should be to serve as that bridge. Besides, If we let the stage3ers dictate everything, how will we ever see any positive change?
SilentDawning wrote:It wouldn’t surprise me if you’re smarting right now cWald. I would try to put this on the backburner… Also, it wouldn’t surprise me if there is another conversation about it with the leaders. You might want to prepare yourself for that, and come up with a number of possible game plans….
Hmmm?
Old-Timer wrote:cwald, is there anyone in the stake in a position of leadership with whom you would feel comfortable talking about your situation – NOT in a “can you believe what they did to me” way, but rather in a “I really want to serve and help in any way I can, but I have a lot of things to work out right now – so I need to be allowed to worship as I can at this time” way?
If not, have you considered talking with your BP and just saying simply, “I really want to serve and help in this branch, but right now I just can’t take being yelled at when I come to church. Can I be treated the way we treat investigators – lovingly and accepting of their weaknesses and struggles?”
Maybe. and Maybe.
Old-Timer wrote:If you can’t do that, how close is the ward you would attend if the branch were dissolved? Have you considered simply attending there for a couple of weeks, at least?
The closest ward is an 86 miles drive. Realistically it is not a long term option.
Thanks for the suggestions. I have 13 days to figure out how to proceed.
Thanks for the though Flower.
cwald wrote:SilentDawning wrote:It wouldn’t surprise me if you’re smarting right now cWald. I would try to put this on the backburner… Also, it wouldn’t surprise me if there is another conversation about it with the leaders. You might want to prepare yourself for that, and come up with a number of possible game plans….
Hmmm?
What I meant was that usually when there’s been a kind of trying experience like this, one’s initial feelings aren’t always accurate — I personally find I have to try to forget it for a couple or three days. After that period, I can look more objectively at what happened, and what my true feelings are about the situation. Usually my feelings are more intense and negative at the outset, and then, after leaving it for a few days, with less emotion attached to the whole thing, it’s easier to make a better decisions that considers all variables (your family, the inconvenience of driving 86 miles to Church versus some othe creative ways of staying involved at the branch level, your desire to have good relationships even with people with whom there has been conflict). You said you have 13 days…so there is a time buffer.
I got reprimanded really harshly a couple years ago, and it hurt badly. My initial reaction was just to quit and take my family to a different Ward. But then I decided to stick with it in spite of the injustice and shame and everything else I felt initially. I stuck with it for reasons other than my initial reaction of rejection of the Ward for what they did.
However, if you want to consider some other game plans…..
a) Consider going once every couple weeks so at least you’re still connected.
b) Be an ardent supporter of anything that benefits your kids. We have one family on that plan right now. Keep them active and getting the benefits of the gospel.
c) Take charge of the situation and be proactive in talking with the counselor — with a view to getting on better terms again. Honestly look at any ways you might have been in the wrong (if any), apologize, and let him know you want to have a good relationship. Talk through it until you both feel better about it — there will probably be an opportunity to share your own perspective, without surrender, as well. Whether or not the Church history is true etcetera — the concept of forging good relationships through forgiveness and love is at the center of the gospel, no matter what brand (LDS or otherwise) a person subscribes to. Reflect on those passages in the Bible nd pray about it until your heart is set of trying to have a good relationship with the counselor who lost it. Check out the leader Pahoran (?) in the Book of Mormon who got a scathing letter from one of his generals over not sending troops, and see what analogies and ideas strike you as applicable in this situation. You don’t have to believe the BoM is a translation from brass plates to get the benefit of the story. I’ve used it in this way in the past when I had interpersonal conflicts.
The Counselor is probably smarting a bit too, and probably regretting that he screamed at you. I would be if I was in his shoes.
cwald wrote:Then he starts in on “Elder Oaks says we need to address our leaders with their proper title, president etc. and that I need to stop calling folks by their first name. Here is where I really messed up Brian. I said, “Well, I guess I just don’t agree with Elder Oaks.” S@#%^$ hit the fan.
I asked him twice to lower his voice and calm down. Finally I just walked away.
Did anybody else notice that PRESIDENT Monson referred to PRESIDENT Hinkley, as Gordon? Just wondering?
cwald wrote:SilentDawning wrote:Wow, I just read Cwald’s post above. Sounds like they’ve got it bad in that particular unit.
Small branch that fluxuates between 20-50 people on any given week. Many die-hard orthodox believers mixed in with converts, investigators, and part-member families. I’m one of the few RMs and one of the few who probably really understands the faith, but unfortunately I “don’t believe it” so to speak, which makes me “suspect” and very ineffective at leadership positions and non-influential in the over schemes of things. I’m just “worker” within the branch.
My wife was kind of upset about the whole incident, and told me on the way home from church, “Why don’t you just wear the damn white shirt, and when they ask you to bless the sacrament, say no, that you don’t feel worthy and/or that you’re not in the right frame of mind…” Haha. Maybe I will do just that!
As I said in another post –
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1840 I think I’m in a good position right now. The branch here is about ten times the size of yours (at least in attendance), which is a good thing in some ways (but not in others – getting to know many people is difficult for example, on such a scale).
Regarding “die-hard orthodox believers”, I think we do have them, but they don’t completely rule the roost here. I had one person back off (physically) when I explained I had come back, he started talking about the priesthood ban in the section at the end of D&C and was shocked that I was so candid about my opinions on it. I’ve also had one person (before my return) who more or less said, “you do this, you do that, you do as you’re told”, ordering me about, which I found offensive. Anything I do for the church is out of my good will, not because I’m forced to. He also told me off for not wearing a white shirt in the past.
Brian Johnston wrote:I opened my big mouth and said “quotes like that, and topics like this are the reason women in
MYlife don’t come to church. It tears me apart. When this is the message from the highest levels of leadership, it turns off the switch and all the other good the church does is dismissed. Women have a “divine” and pre-ordained role to nurture, sure. But don’t they have any divine abilities other than that? Can’t they also be great leaders, great thinkers, created important discourses on the gospel, and achieve other great things in business and society?” Well, I for one am glad to have guys like you in the church, Brian! There are too often things that are
notsaid that should be, which is important over time. Thanks for saying some of them.
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