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Arrakeen wrote:
How can I be direct and to-the-point without being too harsh? I want to get across that I am just not interested in regaining my testimony, that I am happy with where I have landed spiritually (as an atheist). I am happy to attend social gatherings or service projects, but for my own well-being I feel it is necessary to once again step back from regular church attendance.I guess I just struggle to be quite that direct to someone’s face, especially if it seems I may have unintentionally misled them into thinking I was willing to come back to the fold.
You’re in a tough spot and I’m sorry for you. I hope some good comes from this.
Your bishop is probably sincere in his desire to help (and/or not lose a sheep). But he’s also likely to approach from a church perspective and your “loss of spirituality” is a major concern from that point of view. Social stuff is all well and good (and I maintain a good percentage of the membership have no social life outside church and that’s really their testimony) but they want “all in” sorts who will toe the line and believe all the Jedi mind tricks. You’ve already outed yourself and may have set the table for long term issues with the ward/stake and their concerns for your worthiness. I’d not open myself any more, probably speak Mormonese and use more noncommittal and vague words regarding my beliefs.
I did the online stuff while it lasted and then went back to in-person church several months after they stopped offering online options. I’ve found that only attending sacrament meeting helps, even though SM doesn’t do anything for me either. That said, I’ve been pleasantly surprised as most of the themes of recent talks in my ward have been more gospel principles related than they have been in the past.
I typically avoid the 2nd hour, EQ and SS are slogfests that make me feel more drained than uplifted. This past 5th Sunday was the first time I’ve attended 2nd hour in ages and it wasn’t a good experience. It was definitely an experience that makes me not want to attend 2nd hour in the future. It’s also reduced my desire to attend church at all.
Not to drag this discussion back to covid but it’s funny but not funny… some of the same people bending over backwards to grab their ankles to say that the prophet was merely suggesting people use their agency to see if god wanted them take covid seriously are pretty quick to interpret the prophet telling people to serve a mission is a commandment and a failure to do is is a sin. It didn’t take long to forget the personal revelation lesson, if we ever learned it at all.
Arrakeen wrote:
I ended up having a meeting with my bishop and stake president after church about it, explaining why my mission was so horrible
It took a little while but I eventually learned I didn’t need to talk to the bishop. We’re kind of programmed to talk to church leaders and hold their counsel as special so it’s a hard habit to break but they’re just like anyone you’d meet. I’m not saying they haven’t got anything useful to say or that they should be avoided, just that there are other people out there and that a church calling doesn’t automatically make someone worth talking to.
Arrakeen wrote:
How can I be direct and to-the-point without being too harsh? I want to get across that I am just not interested in regaining my testimony, that I am happy with where I have landed spiritually (as an atheist). I am happy to attend social gatherings or service projects, but for my own well-being I feel it is necessary to once again step back from regular church attendance.
I’d start following my plan without worrying about what people at church will think or say, they’ll likely never give validation on a path that doesn’t match the church’s One True Path. They may request meetings but a simple, “No thanks.” works wonders. I said no thanks a few times and the requests dried up. You may need to say no thanks every three to six months to keep people at bay but it works.
I’ll start off by saying I sympathize with how you felt about this past Sunday’s topic of discussion. It dug up potent memories that I thought I had processed and put behind me. Arrakeen wrote:How can I be direct and to-the-point without being too harsh? I want to get across that I am just not interested in regaining my testimony, that I am happy with where I have landed spiritually (as an atheist). I am happy to attend social gatherings or service projects, but for my own well-being I feel it is necessary to once again step back from regular church attendance.
I guess I just struggle to be quite that direct to someone’s face, especially if it seems I may have unintentionally misled them into thinking I was willing to come back to the fold.
Trying to look at it from their perspective, someone who no longer believes what the church teaches but is still coming probably doesn’t compute. I’d imagine they’re thinking you still have a kernel of belief somewhere in you that just needs nurturing. In their minds, why else would you be there? Especially if they are interpreting you’re displayed emotions as a cry for help.
As for how to approach your conversation with your bishop, DJ’s suggestion is a good one. Speak mormonese, smooth things over, tell him things in a way he’d like to hear and maybe you can eventually slip back under the radar.
The other route, and the one I’d probably opt for considering what you’ve told them already, is complete and open honesty. Being gently blunt about where you’re at might get you the result you want. Be open with what you are wanting out of church. Politely rebuff attempts to misconstrue what you’re saying as anything other than what it is. As DJ said, your bishop is probably speaking to you out of a desire to help. If your bishop has any wisdom, he’ll hopefully see that making you a project is the worst thing he can do. But, if you don’t think you’re bishop can do that, I wouldn’t choose this approach.
PazamaManX wrote:
As DJ said, your bishop is probably speaking to you out of a desire to help. If your bishop has any wisdom, he’ll hopefully see that making you a project is the worst thing he can do. But, if you don’t think you’re bishop can do that, I wouldn’t choose this approach.
The problem here is the same one many of us have faced. While the bishop likely truly does desire to help, he more than likely does not know how to help and may well reject ways he could actually help because those ways don’t fit the narrative. That’s why we get the “read the Book of Mormon, pray more/harder/more sincerely, go to the temple, etc.” answers we get, likely already having tried those things and knowing they don’t work. I want to say that there are basically two kinds of bishops, but it’s really not true because it is a spectrum. But if you happen to be lucky enough to be in a place with one who really does try to understand and help (a very small minority) you might find success.
PazamaManX wrote:
Trying to look at it from their perspective, someone who no longer believes what the church teaches but is still coming probably doesn’t compute. I’d imagine they’re thinking you still have a kernel of belief somewhere in you that just needs nurturing. In their minds, why else would you be there? Especially if they are interpreting you’re displayed emotions as a cry for help.There’s a guy (in leadership) I talk to somewhat frequently in my ward. I have attempted several times to explain why someone who doesn’t believe the truth claims or Book of Mormon might continue to come to church, but as you say it doesn’t compute. He can’t seem to wrap his brain around it.
nibbler wrote:
It took a little while but I eventually learned I didn’t need to talk to the bishop. We’re kind of programmed to talk to church leaders and hold their counsel as special so it’s a hard habit to break but they’re just like anyone you’d meet. I’m not saying they haven’t got anything useful to say or that they should be avoided, just that there are other people out there and that a church calling doesn’t automatically make someone worth talking to.Also a good point. Some believe there is some magic “power of discernment” associated with the certain callings but my observations and experiences indicate no such power exists by virtue of the calling. Some people might have a natural gift (or Jedi power) for doing so (think young Leia in Obi Wan Kenobi) and might be called to certain positions but the two seem to be generally unrelated/uncorrelated.
There are likely people in your ward who are capable of seeing things from a different point of view, who do understand that there are people who might come to church even though they don’t believe, who paint with all the colors of the wind. They’re not always obvious because most have learned to either keep quiet all together or speak in careful Mormonese – but if you observe long enough you’ll spot them.
nibbler wrote:
some of the same people bending over backwards to grab their ankles to say that the prophet was merely suggesting people use their agency to see if god wanted them take covid seriously are pretty quick to interpret the prophet telling people to serve a mission is a commandment and a failure to do is is a sin.More of an aside, but I’ve noticed this too.
Arrakeen wrote:
(I had told them quite frankly that the only reason I had come back was to have community and try to make friends).
The church can be a great community and give some a wonderful sense of belonging and validation. I feel that the church works best for creating friendships for adults through serving in callings together. Because of where I am on the participation and belief spectrum, I do not feel that church participation would be a good place for me to look for friendships.There was a time when DW expressed that making friends outside of the LDS church was too hard because there wouldn’t be the shared foundation of beliefs, values, and life experiences. Now it is precisely the opposite. LDS people have beliefs, values, and life experiences that are not the same as where she is now and that tension creates a barrier to more full friendship.
Making friends as an adult can be hard. I do recommend joining clubs and groups that do activities you enjoy or promote causes that you support. It can still be difficult to bridge the gap between people that you see at the group and actual friends that you might hang out with outside of the group but it is at least a starting point.
There’s the classic joke, Jesus’ greatest miracle was having 12 close friends as an adult. PazamaManX wrote:
The other route, and the one I’d probably opt for considering what you’ve told them already, is complete and open honesty. Being gently blunt about where you’re at might get you the result you want. Be open with what you are wanting out of church. Politely rebuff attempts to misconstrue what you’re saying as anything other than what it is. As DJ said, your bishop is probably speaking to you out of a desire to help. If your bishop has any wisdom, he’ll hopefully see that making you a project is the worst thing he can do. But, if you don’t think you’re bishop can do that, I wouldn’t choose this approach.
This is what I’m leaning towards. I think I’ve spent enough time the last few years pretending to be someone I’m not in order to fly under the radar. I really want to just tell it the way it is, and they can choose to either accept or reject me the way I am.
Roy wrote:
Arrakeen wrote:
(I had told them quite frankly that the only reason I had come back was to have community and try to make friends).
The church can be a great community and give some a wonderful sense of belonging and validation. I feel that the church works best for creating friendships for adults through serving in callings together. Because of where I am on the participation and belief spectrum, I do not feel that church participation would be a good place for me to look for friendships.There was a time when DW expressed that making friends outside of the LDS church was too hard because there wouldn’t be the shared foundation of beliefs, values, and life experiences. Now it is precisely the opposite. LDS people have beliefs, values, and life experiences that are not the same as where she is now and that tension creates a barrier to more full friendship.
Making friends as an adult can be hard. I do recommend joining clubs and groups that do activities you enjoy or promote causes that you support. It can still be difficult to bridge the gap between people that you see at the group and actual friends that you might hang out with outside of the group but it is at least a starting point.
I think part of my frustration with going back to church is a realization that I am reaching a point where my beliefs and values no longer really line up with the church the way they used to.
I think I do need to make a more serious effort to socialize outside of the church. I just hoped going back to church would be some sort of “cheat-code” to give me instant friendship and community. And it seems I have changed too much for that to be a realistic expectation.
We were once in a ward that was really more of a branch. We felt so needed, welcomed, and connected. For many years that was the standard of church experience we were seeking. In that ward, DW was also serving as the Primary President and I served in the YM presidency. I honestly feel that if we moved back to that same ward now that it would not be the same. Sure, the area and the members might have changed some but I feel that the far bigger change would have come from us.
Arrakeen wrote:
I think I do need to make a more serious effort to socialize outside of the church. I just hoped going back to church would be some sort of “cheat-code” to give me instant friendship and community. And it seems I have changed too much for that to be a realistic expectation.
One of the “benefits” of the church is that almost anywhere one goes there is an instant community. Most of the time that works, even for those who are not fully active. But it isn’t universal, and there are variables in individuals and in wards. It is possible it could still work for you but it’s not guaranteed and it would require effort and give and take on both sides (and the other side isn’t very good at that). Working on socialization outside the church is probably a better bet at this point, but that can also be a tough row to hoe and it takes effort. Are there people at work you might be comfortable socializing with (I personally avoid that, but it works for some people)? Are there sports or games you like where you might find people with similar interests?
I hope you find the peace you seek.
Roy wrote:
Arrakeen wrote:
Today I decided to attend church for the first time since March 2020. I’m not really a believer anymore, and I was convinced that I was done with the church forever. However, after leaving BYU and moving across the country to Florida,I’ve been finding myself quite lonely. I thought maybe I should give church a try just because I have no idea how else to meet people.
Roy underlined the part above in a previous post. I thought I would address the underlined part.
I have been feeling REALLY lonely lately. I moved to a new state recently (wife threatened divorce if I didn’t) and I had to give up all my music friends, my kayaking friends, and a few church friends. I have zero friends here now, and haven’t had any for 10 months.
I think Facebook pages can help. Find something of interest to you, in my case, kayaking, and starting a paddling group where like-minded people come together to go for a paddle. Whatever your interest might be — hiking, walking, going out to dinner, bowling, and make new friends that way. Up until this part in my life, I always had friends based on music and my hobbies. It’s refreshing to make friends outside of church, so your life is diversified and not revolving around the church.
On Sunday I met with the bishop, and I think it actually went pretty well. I was very direct and expressed that I wanted to avoid any misunderstanding, and that I am not interested in trying to regain a testimony. I explained that my faith journey has led me to a new destination, where I have different beliefs and am starting to think about things in new ways. I made clear that since I don’t believe the same anymore, church can feel alienating. I also mentioned how because of my mission experience messages from church leaders such as the recent lesson on missions have torn open old wounds that I need to let heal.
The bishop was very understanding and thanked me for making myself clear. He said I am always welcome to come back if I feel like it, and said he can let me know about YSA activities if I want. I set some boundaries, so I will not have ministers assigned, but I am ok with ward members occasionally checking in on me as long as they do not expect me to change in a particular way.
Basically, I have decided to step away from church again. I may still attend the occasional activity, but I don’t plan on attending regular church meetings for a while. I feel like this is what I need to do. At least for the time being I am leaving, but I have left the door open in case I want to come back in the future. I guess now it’s time to try building a social life on my own.
I am glad to hear that your bishop was understanding. Not every priesthood leader is so willing to let someone go. Some people leave and allow bitterness and other negative emotions to sour their view of the church until they become “anti”; which is usually what I think some PLs are afraid of. But, some take the break they need, experience life without the church and come to their own healthy conclusion about where the church fits in their life. Everyone’s journeys are different. My best hopes are with you as you go forward.
It does sound like it went fine, certainly not the worst possible outcome. Wishing you all the best as your journey continues! Congratulations to you AND Congratulations to your bishop. It sounds like you both handled that well. For the benefit of lurkers, I think one trap in this sort of meeting is to try to get into specific doubts. The leader will almost certainly not validate your doubts and may try to minimize them/offer counter arguments. Suffice it to say that there are data points to support belief in the LDS worldview and there are data point to encourage doubt – arguing over the two is not too dissimilar to a “bible bash session” where each side quotes scripture to support their position but nobody is really listening to the opposing position.
Generalizing that your beliefs have changed and that you see things differently now and also that you are not interested in regaining your previous testimony seems to avoid that trap altogether.
My own situation with church leaders is that I wish to keep the possibility open for me to perform ordinances for my family in the future. To help accomplish this, I have been purposely vague and indefinite. My views are still in a state of flux and growth and I am a work in progress – as are we all.
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