Trying to find a happy medium…

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

The ones who drink too much would be most of the people in this country. The only way I can deal with it is by not drinking and having a cast iron rule about it… I can’t tell you how many times I went out not intending to be trashed but ending up that way. It doesn’t help that I have very low tolerance to it either. Three without food or four with food and I’m away with the fairies.

Even now I get people asking why I don’t take up drinking again or saying “never trust a man who doesn’t drink” to me. One of my best ways round it is just to say I’m driving. But it does make me useful sometimes. Also if things get rough I can make my excuses and leave.

This country? Try the Caribbean 😆 I swear everyone is an alcoholic in my country lol

But I totally understand trust me and completely respect your decision. Drinking isn’t always the easiest thing to control especially when you take into account all the added factors you listed above. I have my fair share of stories when it comes to drinking (especially during my college years 😳 ) but these days I don’t mind being the one not to drink in the group for the same reasons. I always say “hey it’s always good to have at least one sober friend just in case”

I wish I could be more black and white when it comes to drinking though. I went cold turkey and stopped drinking from 2010 to 2014. It was easy at first but then again I lived in UT for most of that time. I will admit that during that time, I associated drinking with a way (but not the only way) to socialize and make friends. I grew up with that mindset – family gatherings involved at minimum beer or wine. College functions attracted their crowds with alcohol., fancy dinners involved a bottle of wine, etc.

It was a little frustrating making friends in UT because I constantly felt like I was in this very lonely and empty middle ground – not mormon enough for members, and non members liked me but didn’t always want to invite me to things because drinking would be involved and I was too mormon for all that (and based off their experiences with mormons from UT and feeling judged, they didn’t want me to do the same to them)… it just sucked lol

When I moved back east and became inactive, I started socializing and networking with others and felt like my life was normal again. When I decided to drink again, it was just because I wanted to regardless of the situation. Luckily I have a great group of friends and family that don’t care if I drink or not – they simply enjoy my company. But, we do like to socialize and drink together and it’s hard to be around it sometimes but I have pretty good self control lol been in this situation many times because everyone except me drinks lol

[Anonymous]

Ann wrote:

Hi, NYMM – I’m glad you’re here. These are the hard, practical questions. How to redraw boundaries between us and the church without drawing ourselves out of the church. I’m very comfortable with the way I wear garments now (not a lot), and still attending the temple. I don’t have any experience or desire to drink, so I don’t have any real advice for you.

I like this quote from SD’s signature line:

Quote:

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.”

Editing to add: I think the church has a pretty significant problem on its hands because, just looking at this thread, and thousands of others like it, you would almost think that being a Mormon is about what we wear and drink, and not about what we do.

That’s snarky, but, as much as the church might want to deny it, I think that’s where we are now.

Hi Ann!

You make a great point. Sadly that is the culture they have created (in my opinion). I feel like they focus on the wrong things. I have always stated this in church that hey – we are all trying to be more like Jesus Christ – that is why we are here at church. I am not here to judge you for your transgressions or rebellion or your wardrobe or what you do socially or whatever – not my job. However, I am hoping to learn something positive everyday from those around me, and apply that to my life as I seek to become more like Christ. I love hearing about what others have DONE to be a better version of themselves and how they help others (in a healthy way). Don’t always get that from our church but here we are lol

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

NotYourMollyMormon wrote:

I really don’t think there is anything wrong with drinking an occasional 1-2 glasses of wine with your dinner or having a glass of champagne when celebrating something with friends/co workers. Yet if I drink and admit to it during my TR interview, thats a violation and my TR may not be renewed. These days I have been asking myself “Do I go back to my social drinking and miss out on going to the temple and not having callings?” idk idk…

What do you think “keeping the word of wisdom” means? Do you think you have to confess to a bishop for every sip of prohibited liquid you take?

I’m just asking to discuss it more. Not sure what the right answer is. I just wonder what threshold we have to reach to feel honest and good and worthy to pass the TR interview…and if perhaps we hold ourselves sometimes to too high of a standard and create internal guilt unnecessarily.

Maybe…I’m living the word of wisdom…and I had a drink once or twice 3 months ago…is honest and OK? Maybe it depends on our heart and our intentions…and also…how much it would weigh on our minds sitting in the temple wondering about it instead of being present.

In the past, we have discussed this topic in Wayfarers TR question discussions (here)

Have you read through that thread?

What do you think feels right for you?

I have read through Wayfarers TR question discussions in the past (and browsed again just now) thanks for the recommendation 🙂

My interpretation of the WoW has evolved overtime.

During the early years of my membership, keeping the WoW meant to follow all of it without wavering. No exceptions. No middle ground. Not doing so is disobedient and not okay in the eyes of God. Learned that in church, from missionaries, teachers, etc

I believed that up until I was 18.

As an adult, I was more lax with the interpretation (I would drink tea, coffee sometimes, drink alcohol) and would still go to church sporadically. However my mother shared what I was doing with the bishop, and I was put on probation and then disfellowshipped (this cycle kept repeating itself a few times).

Because of that experience, I still had a pretty relaxed attitude about the WoW, however, I associated NOT following the WoW as me being “bad” or “unworthy” and I felt like if I withheld anything I was doing from the bishop, I would not be “clean” from sin and would not be forgiven for my acts. Adding to that, because I wouldn’t be forgiven, I would cheat myself from blessings and that God will punish me for being dishonest :silent: …I have tried to move away from this mindset, and have to some degree, but deep inside I still feel that way

So to answer the second part of your question – YES. I am sure I don’t HAVE to, but I feel like I NEED to for some reason.. like I feel guilty if I don’t because I feel like I am lying…I shouldn’t feel that way but I do…

[Anonymous]

NotYourMollyMormon wrote:

So to answer the second part of your question – YES. I am sure I don’t HAVE to, but I feel like I NEED to for some reason.. like I feel guilty if I don’t because I feel like I am lying…I shouldn’t feel that way but I do…

This. You already get that the WoW is not a commandment and therefore breaking it is not a sin. (I am sorry for your experience of being disfellowshipped over the WoW – I can’t imagine that happening here and now.) I think you also recognize that there is a difference in the church and the gospel. With those two things in mind, letting go of the guilt is amazingly freeing.

[Anonymous]

Welcome to the forum! I’m a fellow NE gal (went to HS outside Philly, but lived in South Jersey for 1.5 yrs also), but much older than you are.

Talking about drinking, early in my marriage, I discovered that my GP in-law occasionally drank beer, and I was shocked and surprised because they were pretty devout LDS, but I also learned a few things from that: 1) the WoW is viewed quite differently by older generations, even in Utah, even in multi-gen Mormon families, because it wasn’t always the thing it is now, 2) it’s not a “confessing sin”–so really it’s up to you what you do with it–you don’t have to talk to your bishop, and 3) I’ve learned over time that other sects of Mormonism interpret it all very differently, and oh yeah 4) D&C 89 doesn’t actually say what we say it says. Personally, I don’t drink (I have a high tolerance, but it gives me insomnia), but I also don’t think it’s a big deal either. Being the only sober person with drunk people, like at a work event–yeah, that is no fun either. But not because I want to join them.

Unfortunately, I do think your characterization of church culture is more or less accurate which is a shame.

[Anonymous]

NotYourMollyMormon wrote:

As an adult, I was more lax with the interpretation (I would drink tea, coffee sometimes, drink alcohol) and would still go to church sporadically. However my mother shared what I was doing with the bishop, and I was put on probation and then disfellowshipped (this cycle kept repeating itself a few times).

Ugh. That is rough.

Factors I can see to work through…

1) Mom

2) Bishop – has that changed? Not all bishops will handle things the same way, but clearly your experience is going to impact how you handle this going forward

3) WoW teaching – personal interpretation vs church rules

For factor#3, studying things out in my mind on the subject…honestly looking at what the issue is and what the teachings are to understand them, and asking God what he cares about for me, getting my own personal revelation and interpretation on the subject…that is important to me.

I like how you are looking for that happy medium, and letting go of extreme black and white positions on the subject.

It may not be your view (#3), you may have it OK between you and God. The trick may be #2, and how to navigate honestly and peacefully with others in the church who have different views. That takes practice to stay honest about it, without not making it more difficult than it needs to be…not revealing more than necessary.

IDK. I’m just sharing thoughts. It sounds like you are working thought it. I think there is a happy medium.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

NotYourMollyMormon wrote:

So to answer the second part of your question – YES. I am sure I don’t HAVE to, but I feel like I NEED to for some reason.. like I feel guilty if I don’t because I feel like I am lying…I shouldn’t feel that way but I do…

This. You already get that the WoW is not a commandment and therefore breaking it is not a sin. (I am sorry for your experience of being disfellowshipped over the WoW – I can’t imagine that happening here and now.) I think you also recognize that there is a difference in the church and the gospel. With those two things in mind, letting go of the guilt is amazingly freeing.

Yea it was not a fun time – I was part of a very small branch and everyone kind of sort of knew what was going on :thumbdown:

And my goal is to ultimately not feel that guilt anymore. I think I am getting closer to that point these days which is good (plus the convos in this forum have helped me out too)

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

Welcome to the forum! I’m a fellow NE gal (went to HS outside Philly, but lived in South Jersey for 1.5 yrs also), but much older than you are.

Talking about drinking, early in my marriage, I discovered that my GP in-law occasionally drank beer, and I was shocked and surprised because they were pretty devout LDS, but I also learned a few things from that: 1) the WoW is viewed quite differently by older generations, even in Utah, even in multi-gen Mormon families, because it wasn’t always the thing it is now, 2) it’s not a “confessing sin”–so really it’s up to you what you do with it–you don’t have to talk to your bishop, and 3) I’ve learned over time that other sects of Mormonism interpret it all very differently, and oh yeah 4) D&C 89 doesn’t actually say what we say it says. Personally, I don’t drink (I have a high tolerance, but it gives me insomnia), but I also don’t think it’s a big deal either. Being the only sober person with drunk people, like at a work event–yeah, that is no fun either. But not because I want to join them.

Unfortunately, I do think your characterization of church culture is more or less accurate which is a shame.

Hello my fellow NE! lol I have yet to go to philly but I have tons of family in jersey and visit here and there

Thanks for sharing what you have learned! you make great points. In my research I did notice the same things – it gave me a little peace of mind lol

And yes (full disclaimer) – not saying what I went through happens all the time and to everyone (and hey I could be all wrong about it), but that was my experience. Wish it were better but alas…

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

NotYourMollyMormon wrote:

As an adult, I was more lax with the interpretation (I would drink tea, coffee sometimes, drink alcohol) and would still go to church sporadically. However my mother shared what I was doing with the bishop, and I was put on probation and then disfellowshipped (this cycle kept repeating itself a few times).

Ugh. That is rough.

Factors I can see to work through…

1) Mom

2) Bishop – has that changed? Not all bishops will handle things the same way, but clearly your experience is going to impact how you handle this going forward

3) WoW teaching – personal interpretation vs church rules

For factor#3, studying things out in my mind on the subject…honestly looking at what the issue is and what the teachings are to understand them, and asking God what he cares about for me, getting my own personal revelation and interpretation on the subject…that is important to me.

I like how you are looking for that happy medium, and letting go of extreme black and white positions on the subject.

It may not be your view (#3), you may have it OK between you and God. The trick may be #2, and how to navigate honestly and peacefully with others in the church who have different views. That takes practice to stay honest about it, without not making it more difficult than it needs to be…not revealing more than necessary.

IDK. I’m just sharing thoughts. It sounds like you are working thought it. I think there is a happy medium.

Wow you are pretty spot on!

1. My mom and I had a very strained relationship … it developed while I was growing up and church was intertwined in all that

We have been trying to rebuild our relationship, however, because she is the only active member in my family, I tend to overshare what I am going through (especially when it is church related), but then she pulls these stunts and tells the church leaders in her stake (who I grew up with) and I get very upset with her… I have been trying my best to reduce or restrict what I share with her on purpose so that she has less things to run to the bishop and SP about. Luckily I don’t live with her anymore, but she still finds a way to run her mouth. Sadly this cycle has been repeating itself since my teens and only now am I having more control over the situation.

The other issue is that she makes very snarky remarks about my behavior when it comes to church:

“The rate you are going, who in their right mind at church would marry someone as disobedient as you are. The only hope you have is a non member who is (insert mediocre characteristics here)”

“Are you really going to wear that? What will people think of you at church” (mind you my garments are completely covered)

“You know that contains caffeine in it right? In the WoW it says you can’t consume that and you won’t be worthy”

“You are my last hope out of all my kids to be saved in the latter days since your siblings left the church. Please don’t do (insert whatever sin/transgression here) because I don’t want to be alone in the after life.”

This is what I grew up with. I don’t listen to any of that nonsense anymore (thank goodness!), but she still makes comments like that to me all of the time smh

2. The bishop(s) I was referring to in my post were from my early adulthood so I don’t deal with them anymore. My current bishop is nice, but I am not that comfortable talking to him about many things. However, he always tells me “you don’t have to tell me everything, but as long as you say you are doing fine that is okay.” He just takes my word for it. Idk what his views are with much – I just know that he is really big on consistent attendance to church

3. And yea I am taking a step at a time. I am glad you all have shared your thoughts on the matter because it forces me to think outside the box and to reevaluate my thoughts. I think I will get to a good place about it sooner than later

[Anonymous]

Welcome. You have plenty of advice to work with. I am sending hugs.

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

Welcome. You have plenty of advice to work with. I am sending hugs.

Awwww thank you ! I love hugs! Thanks for the support

[Anonymous]

Welcome! I can relate to some of what you feel, particularly not totally buying into the culture. Welcome to the forum, and thanks for finally posting something after so much lurking. I agree this is a good place to talk about unorthodoxy without being too overly negative or morphing into an Anti-Mormon.

[Anonymous]

I’m very glad to hear you have been able to break away from your mom that treated you that way.

Out from under that, I think the Lord is guiding you on how to build yourself up in mature and healthy ways.

Focus on the gospel of Christ and seek love and peace in your heart. The rest takes care of itself.

Thanks for posting here. I look forward to learning from your posts.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I kind of skipped over the rest of the discussion. Hopefully I’m not being redundant or anything.

NotYourMollyMormon wrote:

I had been living in Utah for 3 years and decided I couldn’t take it anymore

I know the feeling. Utah is a strange place full of strange people with funny, judgmental, and self-righteous ideas. I’d rather raise my future family in a literal war zone than in Utah.

I can also relate to leaving the singles ward. I’ve been going with my parents to my family ward lately since the singles ward is so bad. It annoys me how church gets turned into a meat market.

Your thoughts on the WoW are intriguing to me. It reminded me of an elderly, inactive former bishop I regularly visited on my mission. His wife would drink coffee for health reasons (she had a condition which was helped by caffeine and coffee was the most straightforward way to get it.) He believed that the WoW should have never been made into a TR question. While I’ve never really had an issue with it personally, I can see where he was coming from and sort of agree. It may have been pragmatic when it was implemented, but it often acts as a barrier to entry for new members and a point of judgement to returning members.

I definitely agree that it is wildly open to interpretation. I also find it weird how it’s cherry-picked when it comes to TR interviews. The MTC serves way more than “sparingly” amount of meat in the cafeteria, but we don’t see that revoking any TRs. It’s odd that we’ve pretty much conflated WoW to mean “don’t smoke, drink alcohol, coffee, or tea, or do drugs” when that makes up so little of the actual content of D&C 89, which was not a commandment in the first place.

[Anonymous]

I agree with what you say, Beefster and I often say the main reason I wouldn’t want to live in Utah is because there are too many Mormons. But, there are many very good people there as well.

[Author]

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