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LaLaLove wrote:
Can random men be sealed to me then if they have never been sealed.. if I die tomorrow BUT my DH is still living? I completly understand God working everything out – But if it really doesn’t matter sealings should go both ways … Men with multiple sealings and Women with multiple sealings..If it is just to get the “Feet in the Doors”.
I will defer to MH and Ray who have contacts with temple workers and would know more than I, but my understanding is no, they don’t randomly seal people together. Families are sealed. Husband and wife are sealed and their children to them. If a women is never sealed to a husband, she would at least be sealed to her parents, but not a random priesthood holder. On the flipside, a man never married would not have random women sealed to them, but would be sealed to his parents.
Heber13 is correct. People are sealed to parents, children and any spouse(s) to whom they were married. Currently, there are no “dynastic” or “communal” sealings performed. Just something to consider about the meaning of the word “seal” in context of the temple ordinances:
Children are “sealed” to their parents – and yet I don’t know of anyone who, when they stop and think about it, believe that means the children will be living with their parents eternally – or continue to be subject to them – or have to report to them – or anything else that approximates the mortal parent-child relationship. “Sealing”, therefore, must mean something MUCH broader than “fix mortal familial ties in place for eternity”. I personally believe it refers far more to a welding together in perfect unity. That is worth considering, imo.
I agree with Ray. It seems to me that conference talks have mentioned the possibility that if a worthy woman (or man) dies without being sealed to a spouse, then they will find a righteous person in the next life. Since the same sociality exists in the next life, I don’t think a person would be paired with any random spouse, but rather the single person would date, court, and choose their spouse, just as we do here. Well, I’m back to thinking we can’t make sense of Joseph because we will never know his full story. Or, we just have to accept that he was a larger than life -almost mythological- man. Doesn’t he have all the qualities of a tragic hero or something like that? Don’t they all have a fatal flaw? just me wrote:Doesn’t he have all the qualities of a tragic hero or something like that? Don’t they all have a fatal flaw?
That was why I liked Joseph Campbell’s book “The Power of Myths” so much. Yes, there were many myths that display these qualities that are so interesting, they make the reader think deeply on it and draw your own conclusions. Jesus, the Buddha, Greek Heroes, Darth Vader/Luke Skywalker … and I think Joseph Smith fits into there. There are so many things that make his incredible vision and life and teachings mythological and very profound.
It also makes me think of my first experience as a freshman at BYU. I took Humanities as part of GE. We read a poem the professor himself wrote. As a class we analyzed all the symbolic meanings. I remember one student explaining his interpretation which was a pretty insightful view on the poem. The professor said, “Well, I didn’t intend that to have meaning when I wrote it, but it seems that does fit and make sense. Isn’t it interestingly how some things can take on a life of their own?” Even though the author of the poem didn’t come up with that meaning, others did and then placed that meaning into the poem and gave credit to the author that he was so brilliant to teach such a deep meaning.
I think that happens with Joseph Smith sometimes. He did things to try to follow his heart on what he felt God was wanting him to do. Then over the years, thousands of people analyze his words and deeds and put their own conclusions on what he did…and he becomes a legendary hero. But how much of that was the real intent of Joseph, and how much was just the interpretation? Like you said, I think we need to be able to ask him to know for sure, and without that, I’m not sure we can make sense of it.
That’s it! I’m going to the library right now to check out The Power of Myth. Heber, thanks for sharing that story.
Wonderful story, Heber. Thanks from me, as well. Quote:Valoel said….The absence of positive proof for the literal, physical existence of things does not invalidate the moral, spiritual concepts. Stories with a moral value still teach something, even if the characters are fictional. Think of all the great works of literature over the ages.
From my point of view it is as honest to not know the truth about Moses or Joseph Smith as it is for someone who does indeed know. It’s OK with me, what God will say should be our real concern. What I am getting at is to be SELF AWARE.
The human mind has the ability for self examination. I know when I am slacking off, when I am being lazey, if I am being honest with myself. We will all account for our actions or inactions. I have friends who once were active mormons and no longer are. I try to understand how there light blub was turned off. Some of them try to understand how mine stays on. Some become missionaries for their new system of unbelief, they take an interest in distroying the faith of others, so they will have some company, I suppose.
The only real thing I seem to have learned, is these friends no longer appear to be as happy as they once were. They don’t seem to be aware they are any less happy. I try to be accepting of where they are, they choose some how to be where they are, I choose to be their friend and to be amazed at how we all choose to create ourselves, each and every day.
Quote:I have friends who once were active mormons and no longer are. I try to understand how there light blub was turned off. Some of them try to understand how mine stays on. Some become missionaries for their new system of unbelief, they take an interest in distroying the faith of others, so they will have some company, I suppose. The only real thing I seem to have learned, is these friends no longer appear to be as happy as they once were. They don’t seem to be aware they are any less happy.
People leave or go inactive for many reasons. Some are happier having left, some are not. During the initial phase of disaffection, no one is as happy as they were before they were disaffected. That’s just a stage of life. We can’t be kids forever, eating candy in the sunshine with no real understanding of how babies are made or the fact that our parents are imperfect or that there is poverty in the world. We eventually have to grow up. And growing up is hard – seeing those naive beliefs shatter. But in time, a more mature faith can grow, based on reality and a deeper understanding that brings perspective. For those who can’t get unstuck from the rut of bitterness, or as you say “missionaries for a new system of unbelief,” they still haven’t transcended that stage of life where we define ourselves by differentiating from what has hurt us or “betrayed” us. This usually happens when someone is either very abused and hurt (has experienced the church at its very worst) or is personally more susceptible to this kind of damage.
Consider the stages of life:
child: the world revolves around you and is magical
teenage: you see the cracks in the facade of the world and realize that your parents aren’t perfect, they don’t know everything or have all the answers, and you’re pretty much on your own. You may rebel, push boundaries, and define yourself as “different” from your parents
young adult: you begin to define yourself separately from your parents for the first time; you decide what your life will be like
adult: you start to see your parents’ perspectives anew; you watch your children do what you did as a teen, and it irritates you but you remember it well
senior: as you watch your children progress, you see the bigger picture of your life and can reconcile the things you did right and wrong and forgive what others did that has hurt you
You can stop progressing at any of these stages and live your whole life that way if you choose, but you will miss out on heartache and perspective. That’s the point of the Adam & Eve myth: that we eat knowledge, and it brings both pain and joy, but we can never go back to our pre-knowledge existence.
Hawkgrrrl wrote:That’s the point of the Adam & Eve myth: that we eat knowledge, and it brings both pain and joy, but we can never go back to our pre-knowledge existence.
Well said. I think this applies to my search for facts on church history and Joseph Smith. Once you find out certain things are documented and can’t be explained away easily…you can’t go back. You have to move ahead and decide if you believe JS was still a prophet, despite what you now think about him, or if you decide he was not. That requires new thinking, new reasoning, new faith…and new opportunities for growth.Whenever I think hear about things such as these, I try to remember the Cardinal Rule. Do unto others as you would like done unto you. I can’t imagine anyone who would want the love of their life to be “sealed” to someone else, especially if it holds the distinguished privilege we are meant to believe it does. It’s the same as an emotional affair in my own opinion.
Japanese have a saying, Bachi. It means that what comes around goes around. If you’ve lived long enough, you’ve probably noticed this in your life. I can only believe that if someone does something to hurt another, and that person hasn’t realized what they’ve done or the emotional discord they placed on that person…eventually the law of Bachi will present itself, perhaps in the life after.
I wouldn’t want to have to explain my actions to another and “feel” their pain during my trial with God preceeding over us. Always live by what you would want others to do to you…because that is what it is all about in the very end. That is true Harmony brought on by Love.
I just wanted to bump this thread up again. Its lengthy, but some good comments from the group on this. 
He did see “the Lord” in his own handwritten version of the First Vision. This corresponds to Alma 11:23-40, Ether 3:14, and Mosiah 15:1-5. I had a profound experience where I was told audibly to “read Alma as there is something for you to find”. Many of my spiritual experiences have been witnessed by others. Therefore, despite being a “lowly” woman (yes, I was told that women could not have spiritual experiences by three men after sharing something in Sunday School) I did have spiritual direction given to me.
JS did have revelation given to him by Moroni due to his pure heart much like King David. He had to repent for four years until he brought the correct person (Emma~ a Woman) and until his thoughts were pure enough (greed factor and the gold) to obtain the plates. This shows how he was human. I know that he did translate the plates through inspiration ~line upon line~ with a few minor hiccups (had to prove himself aka ego to Martin Harris) you know the story. Then D&C 3:1-11 tells us again that JS was human and how “how oft you (JS) have transgressed” despite having had “many revelations” and he was warned against following “his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God”…
:angel: Unfortunately, JS got into ego (like King David) and although ordained by God to be an apostle (D&C 20:2) decided to have a King position rather than to be one of the 12 apostles which would have followed the example Jesus Christ set as the body to reign until Jesus Christ Comes. He forgot the commandment to “not covet thy neighbor’s wife” (D&C 19:25) and the words of Jacob 2 & 3: “they understand not the scriptures for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms…Behold David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me saith the Lord” and that the Nephites were destroyed due to polygamy.
Abraham’s consequence (lied to the Prince about Sarah fearing man more than God) for his polygamy (lack of faith in God’s promise) was the enmity between Hagar & Sarah and the Muslims today who hate Christians. Raising up a seed unto the Lord simply means to teach your children about God, it does not justify polygamy.
Yes, I prayed about polygamy (and Masonry which requires a blood oath) and God allows Free Agency and polygamy has never been of God! I will never deny the Spirit which confirmed this truth that polygamy (suppression and abuse of women) has never been of God!
Award-winning LDS historian and voted most popular BYU professor, D. Michael Quinn researched confirmation that JS repented of polygamy (and Masonry) prior to his Masonic murder (Origins of Power, pg. 645=646). Had JS followed God’s will, he would have fled to the Rocky Mountains to complete his repentance and thus commenced the prophesied “Cleansing of the Lord’s House” at that time. Instead he feared man more than God and “went like a lamb to slaughter”…
Joseph Smith was human! When he repented he was blessed. When he followed his own will he was cursed. The early pure years of the church were marked with many Heavenly manifestations and happy people. The cursed years were marked with much “justified whoremongering” and the secret combinations of “Masonry” which stems from Satan telling Cain to take an oath of secrecy prior to the murder of Abel (Moses 5:29). We are warned by Christ to never take an oath “as it comes of evil” or to “trust in the arm of flesh” since the rock of Christ’s church is revelation. D&C 132 was not added to the scriptures until 1880.
Richard G. Scott said it best that “everyone needs to repent no matter their age or position” in Gen Conf. We are all human. Joseph Smith reminds me of King David (lusted after Bathsheba had Uriah murdered), both men had pure hearts and both were human with carnal desires. We do a grave injustice to anyone when we put them on a pedestal of perfection. Jesus Christ is the ONLY Example and way to God. So I also look at his simple and pure teachings regarding the sanctity of marriage between one man and one woman, equality of everyone, calling of the 12 to serve as a body, baptism, repentance, and the remembrance of Him through the Sacrament of only ONE God, etc.
Is the Restored Gospel true? YES! Is there “much restoration” needed at this time? (2 Ne 3:24) Yes. Is the millennium to be a time of “no more secrets” Yes. Does the internet fulfill Isaiah’s prophecy that all secrets will be “shouted from the rooftops” Yes.
I don’t throw the BABY (Gospel) out with the bathwater (polygamy, Masonry, inequality, elitism, misunderstanding of scriptures and dictates of men).
This is how I make sense of Joseph Smith and his “follies, and…abominations which you practise before me, saith the Lord” (D&C 124:47-48). President Ezra Taft Benson reminded us that we are a condemned church due to Pride and not understanding (reading) the Book of Mormon (famous Pride talk).
A simple guide that I use for truth is how does it “fit” in with the teachings of the Book of Mormon because men are human, but the Book of Mormon is the “Book of the Lamb” (1 Ne 13). We know the Gospel will never be taken from the earth and that the Church just needs some tweaking (Brother Pohlman’s inspired General Conference talk on the separation of the Gospel and Church).
:clap: Here is another older thread about Joseph Smith with numerous comments about the Book of Mormon. It’s one of the longest threads ever at this site. holy cannoli, batman! that was a long thread. thanks again ray.
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