Trying to make sense of Joseph Smith

[Anonymous]

Elder Wirthlin was a GREAT man. Just needed to say that.

Oh, and based on his General Conference talk, I really hope Elder Anderson takes up Elder Wirthlin’s mantle with regard to the orchestra and the “non-piccoli”.

[Anonymous]

But back to Joseph Smith, let me just make it clear that, for me, Joseph Smith is NOT a core idea of religion. I sincerely believe many holy people live and die and enter the bosom of the Father without giving a moment’s notice to the name or the person of Joseph Smith. That doesn’t mean he can’t be a restorer for you, though. It would just be wise to keep that idea and the man in proper perspective.

[Anonymous]

Tom, I think we all agree with that. I certainly do.

[Anonymous]

I just have to say that there are many beautiful things said in this thread. Thank you for this edifying discussion…..even if I’m late to the party.

[Anonymous]

Just me,

I totally agree…wow, really good stuff on this thread, and so much of it hits so close to home for me.

I find myself tending to shed the absolutist skin I was raised in. And now I feel much like Ray’s quote:

Quote:

It’s granting that others’ paths don’t need to be my path that was the truly liberating epiphany for me – or, I should say, that my path doesn’t need to be others’ paths – that their LEGITIMATE paths even might include paths that were only stepping stones for me – and, ultimately, that my path isn’t ANY “better” or “higher” or holier” than theirs are for them.

I don’t need to convince anyone else of Joseph Smith. Most of what I read from what he said he was truly a man trying to do what God wanted. And most people that were in contact with him were inspired to be better. He must have had some kind of charisma that people felt his strong spirit. That does not sound like a duplicitous or deceitful man.

There is so much written on the web for or against JS, and I often wonder how accurate the records are of the things he said and did…there were no video cameras then, so we have to go on the testimonies of people then, and that brings into question a lot of sources and what their motives were.

[Anonymous]

I hesitated posting these thoughts, as I’ve still been studying them. I have just been reading and struggling with making sense of the polygamy thing…that really just gets me, mostly because it was so secret that something like that makes you think it was being hid for a reason. I think there may be these options:

1) God told JS to do it, and he would not disobey God. Therefore he tried to expand his influence in every way possible. It is a law of heaven and we just aren’t ready to understand it in our society, but JS wasn’t going to fear men and lived the law regardless of its popularity. (Yikes, this scares me as I would then have to accept this doctrine if I believe God requires it for me to go to the highest degree of heaven…I’m not sure I can grasp why that would be? It being allowed in biblical times is different than required for salvation, IMO.)

2) It was less about sex than we jump to conclusions on based on our social upbringing, and could be more of what was pointed out above, where it was sealing people to him, not active marriage that we protect vehemently (i.e. Prop . Other accounts of illigitimate kids could be questioned on the source??? (There seems to be pretty strong documentation of children from these marriages, so it seems to be hard to accept this, as sex had to be a part of it for at least the majority of marriages, so I reject this possibility.)

3) JS read it was ok for other prophets in ancient days, and like other things he “restored” he tried to live it and it satisfied human/physical needs and was rationalized, but was wrong in practicing it. (This tends to lean towards he was becoming a fallen prophet and straying or misunderstanding God’s will or revelations…which seems inconsistent with other things during these periods. It is hard to think he was sinning during the week, but acting as God’s mouthpiece on Sunday. I’m not ready yet to accept he was a fallen prophet.)

4) It is allowed and blessed by the Lord only when God allows it. JS told his scribe, “Gave instructions to try those persons who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives; for, according to the law, I hold the keys of this power in the last days; for there is never but one on earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred; and I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise.” -Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p.324

#214847

[Anonymous]

Well, I just lost a post that took me 2 hours to type. I better go to bed. 😥

[Anonymous]

just me wrote:

Well, I just lost a post that took me 2 hours to type. I better go to bed. 😥

I hate it when that happens. I’ve taken to highlighting all my text when I finish, then pressing to copy the text to my clipboard, and only then clicking . That way I don’t lose all that effort.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I guess I can go with #4, because it is a self-fulfilling doctrine. It is not wrong if God authorizes it (see also, Nephi killing Laban). But it is wrong if God did not specifically authorize it, and so it becomes dependent on one’s confidence in the person holding the keys. If God will not let that person holding the keys to lead the church astray but would first remove him from his office, then one can have confidence in following the direction of that keyholder, and leave it in God’s hand to judge the keyholder, but one would be judged according to how they obeyed that command from the keyholder, or standing up to the keyholder and declaring them fallen (which could be deemed necessary if the keyholder was wrong, like if BY ordered MMM, which I don’t believe he did).

Before I post my belief on the whole polygamy principle I want to address this paragraph. I do it in the spirit of sharing. I think most believe #4, but I believe it is supported by some false assumptions (IMO).

I had to let go of these beliefs. That was the only way for me to find my path and my truth. I’m going to address what I believe are false, but I respect those who believe them-I did for 32 years. I’m going to address them as there are commonly believed among members of the church.

Point 1: God authorizes things contrary to the Light of Christ. (We don’t say it like that, but that is the belief)

My Opinion: If you are taught something contrary to the Light of Christ it is false. If you feel prompted to kill someone I can garuantee that is not what you are supposed to do. The scriptures are symbolic-we are to kill our own passions and ego.

Point 2: The prophet/leader will never lead the people astray.

My Opinion: Wilford Woodruff said this when he declared the Manifesto ending polygamy. It has no basis in scripture.

Point 3: God will “remove” a fallen/false prophet. Often interpreted as the dude will die.

My Opinion: There will be and always has been false prophets. God does not take them literally from the earth.

However, a false prophet holds no keys and has no prophetic mantle-those are taken from him if he had them to begin with. That doesn’t mean he won’t pretend at it.

Point 4: If we follow false doctrine or commands from the prophet we will be blessed for it.

My Opinion: Again, this originated with WW. It has no base in the scriptures. If we blindly follow our leaders we are relying on the arm of the flesh. It will not bring us closer to God.

I believe these are dangerous things we tell ourselves that keep us from gaining a one-on-one relationship with our God. It can be scary to take out the middle man and rely wholly on God, but it is the path to freedom and true joy.

These teachings are also dangerous because they bolster our belief (that we say we don’t believe) that the prophets are infallable. So anything a prophet does must be good. This is especially dangerous when we take the scriptures literally-killing, lying, racism, etc.

I’m open to being wrong, but knowing my stand on these issues will help others understand where I’m coming from in my beliefs on polygamy.

[Anonymous]

Heber, before I post my annoyingly long post I would love for you to expand on this.

Quote:

3) JS read it was ok for other prophets in ancient days, and like other things he “restored” he tried to live it and it satisfied human/physical needs and was rationalized, but was wrong in practicing it. (This tends to lean towards he was becoming a fallen prophet and straying or misunderstanding God’s will or revelations…which seems inconsistent with other things during these periods. It is hard to think he was sinning during the week, but acting as God’s mouthpiece on Sunday. I’m not ready yet to accept he was a fallen prophet.)

What specific “other things” are you referring to? Certain doctrines or revelations given during the Nauvoo period?

[Anonymous]

just me wrote:

What specific “other things” are you referring to? Certain doctrines or revelations given during the Nauvoo period?

Many of the revelations in the D&C were given as the prophet wondered about scriptures he came across, and sought clarification from the Lord, such as:

1)Priesthood

2)Baptism

3)Abraham had many wives and concubines

4)D&C128 on baptisms for the dead

Those types of things I was referring to.

[Anonymous]

just me wrote:

Well, I just lost a post that took me 2 hours to type. I better go to bed. 😥

I type up my posts in another editor (notepad, emacs, TextEdit) and then copy and paste it into the post.

[Anonymous]

just me wrote:

Point 3: God will “remove” a fallen/false prophet. Often interpreted as the dude will die.

My Opinion: There will be and always has been false prophets. God does not take them literally from the earth.

However, a false prophet holds no keys and has no prophetic mantle-those are taken from him if he had them to begin with. That doesn’t mean he won’t pretend at it.

Yeah, I’m with you on this one. What’s interesting to me is that even if one takes the TBM view of this, Joseph was murdered. Is this not a “removal from office” in a literal sense? How do we know he wasn’t “taken” because he was leading the church astray? I certainly don’t know.

just me wrote:

Point 4: If we follow false doctrine or commands from the prophet we will be blessed for it.

My Opinion: Again, this originated with WW. It has no base in the scriptures. If we blindly follow our leaders we are relying on the arm of the flesh. It will not bring us closer to God.

I’m with you on this one too. I have a close TBM friend who believes that we will be blessed for our obedience regardless of what we’re being obedient to. This places priority on the act of obedience. A very dangerous situation to be in. I just can’t accept being obedient just for the sake of being obedient. This has a place in life, like child-parent relationship, but not as adults.

just me wrote:

I believe these are dangerous things we tell ourselves that keep us from gaining a one-on-one relationship with our God. It can be scary to take out the middle man and rely wholly on God, but it is the path to freedom and true joy.

These teachings are also dangerous because they bolster our belief (that we say we don’t believe) that the prophets are infallable. So anything a prophet does must be good. This is especially dangerous when we take the scriptures literally-killing, lying, racism, etc.

Agreed, 100%

Good thoughts just me.

[Anonymous]

@Heber13

Let me give my unprofessional, biased, but educated, best guess. Joseph is an enigma, no matter how you slice it (for me anyway). Here’s how I classify, describe, and explain his life (note that I don’t explain why he did everything):

1. had gifts as a visionary to “see” things (or at least purported to, there is evidence he denied this).

2. wrote (translated) a book (for reasons I cannot explain). I think Joseph really was sincere (at least initially. this is important)

3. began to amass a small following.

4. organized a small church.

5. things popped up all the time challenging his authority. This was largely a function of the times and culture and often these challenges were the very same things he himself used to gain his authority (Hiram Page stone, James Strang, etc.)

6. Joseph felt compelled to embellish his story at each challenge to his authority to remain in control (read: priesthood restoration, first vision, Moroni visitation, etc.)

7. At some point Joseph began (for some reason) to fall into Plato’s classic philosopher king trap. This is the same as Nietzche’s “pious lie” concept.

8. Joseph began to be too confident in his “revelations” and began to associate all his thoughts with pure “revelations.”

9. As a result of #7, Joseph quickly became the “alpha male” of the group and started doing the things normal “alpha male’s” do (like have sexual desires for women in the group)

10. #8, and #9 (coupled with Old Testament study) ultimately led to the revelation on polygamy.

11. #7 led to Joseph keeping it hidden and secret.

12. As people found out, Joseph had to devise new ways to maintain his authority (excommunicating people, allowing some men to do it like Bennett, etc., and eventually destroying the Nauvoo Expositor press).

13. At this point, Joseph was so entrenched in the philosopher king mentality he could weave a tale, get a revelation, and manipulate people to do whatever he felt was in the best interests of the group.

14. The temple ceremonies were then created (patterned after other secret rituals) in order to keep people loyal to Joseph and the church.

I recognize this is a very crude outline. The point is that while Joseph started with good intentions (I believe) he eventually came to see himself as a philosopher king. He was also the alpha male of the group. It was natural for him (following patterns well established by various men of this ilk) to engage in something akin to sex with women of the group. Joseph called it plural marriage. But Jim Jones did it, David Keresh did it, and a myriad of other alpha male leaders of various groups did it.

Incidentally (like you alluded to), this is largely why I started rejecting truths that Joseph “revealed” during the time he was secretly practicing polygamy and polyandry. I just couldn’t come to grips with the idea of lying to people (especially Emma) over something so egregious as polygamy, all while receiving profound revelations about the mysteries of God. I don’t quite have the same view since I have grown since then a bit.

For me, when Joseph Smith is viewed through the lens of a charismatic, philosopher king/cult leader, his actions make much more sense. At the end of the day, I don’t really need to prove (to myself) whether he was or was not a “true” prophet of God. He proved (to me) through his actions that he was an unreliable spiritual guide. One need only look to the myriad of prophecies and promises he made, which did not come to pass, which he promptly passed off as disobedience on the part of his followers, spurious revelations (some from man, others from God, others from Devil), or some other inconvenience. This does not mean that I can’t learn anything from his teachings. But for me, it casts a huge shadow on the authority claims, ordinances, and doctrines of the LDS church.

I can’t say with any certainty my opinion, and I am still reading rough stone rolling for an alternative explanation. I am open to the possibility that everything is as the church claims it to be, I just tend to doubt it from the evidence I have viewed. In my estimation there is simply a better explanation that fits the data.

Incidentally, from things I have read, you would be hard pressed to find a better treatment of Joseph and polygamy than in Rough Stone Rolling. In Sacred Loneliness is a good treatment of the facts about the women he married, but doesn’t go into analysis of why (I haven’t read this one, this is just what I am led to believe). You also could look toward some of the work done by the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS church), as well as the fundamentalist Mormon perspective. Some of them (Ann Wilde) have done some pretty good research on this topic.

[Anonymous]

Ok, here are my thoughts on polygamy and reconciling JS as a prophet. Warning: This is long and probably makes more questions than answers. It is also heretical.

I believe that polygamy is NOT required for “exaltation.” God the Father did not command it, and never has. This is the conclusion I came to after much study, pondering and prayer. This does not mean I stand in judgment of people who were/are sincere in their belief of it. Since many members feel that this issue may be given to us in the future I think it is crucial to know for ourselves if it is from God.

*Polygamy makes women second class citizens. Not to mention concubines! This is not in keeping with what I believe is the true nature of God.

*D&C 132 is in direct conflict to previous revelation. God commanded us to measure all revelation by what has previously been revealed. It fails this test.

*D&C 132 was introduced to the church in 1852. It was not put into the D&C until 1856.

*Joseph never publicly taught this “doctrine.” He is quoted as saying he felt he taught harder doctrine from the pulpit than in private. I also like to think he would have publicly taught it if it was God’s will. I am most bothered by the lying-have a hard time reconciling that.

*Polygamy was a “hot topic” in the early 1800’s on three different continents-England, Europe and US East Coast. Missionaries tracted in this area of the East Coast and even converted some (1830’s). Brigham is reported to have gone on a mission to this area *by himself* by the RLDS.

*The D&C is FULL of warnings from God about adultery, whoring spirits, lust and coveting your neighbor’s wife. I have a hard time buying that He would suddenly find them righteous enough to do what he had to chastise them about!

See D&C 63:14,16; 3:4; 19:25; 38:24,25; 101:6

*The second greatest commandment is “love thy neighbor.” How does one do that while taking his wife???

*D&C 42 is the law of the church. It calls for strict monogamy. Vs.22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else. (emphasis mine)

*The Article on Marriage was accepted by the body of the saints by common consent in 1835. This made it binding. It was added to the 1835 edition of the D&C. It was not removed until 1876. It called for strict monogamy. Some say it was politically motivated and not written by JS, but he obviously approved it.

*Jacob 2:27…For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife…28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women…34…For ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done. 35…Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children.

Verse 30 the righteous seed argument-I think it is a misinterpretation to say this can be done through polygamy. I believe this is done by removing the people from among the wicked. If you read fully in context this is a legitimate interpretation.

*When JS argued that “anything God commands is right” he did so in a secret letter to the daughter of Sidney Rigdon. He was trying to persuade her that polygamy was a correct principle.

-Of course everything God commands is right-that is why I don’t believe polygamy or commanded killings come from God. The Light of Christ will tell us what is right. If it goes against that then it is safe to say it is not of God.

*There is no scriptural precedent for God sending an angel to kill someone for disobedience. For goodness sake, if He did, why not take out Hitler or some other murdering maniac??? I believe the angel with the sword is a Mormon legend.

*There is one source that says Joseph may have been in the process of trying to rid the church of polygamy and repent before his death. It is said that he wanted all guilty of polygamy to be tried and that he had the revelation burned

*There were more men than women in Utah. This debunks the “need” for polygamy based on male to female ratio.

*Fewer children are born to polygamist relationships than monogamist. Just look at BY.

*”He who is exalted shall be abased; he who is abased shall be exalted.” This whole practice just seems like it was used to exalt ones self.

*Jesus said “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.” I really don’t see how polygamy is either.

So how do we reconcile Joseph Smith the prophet? It appears to me that prophets are fully human and make tons of mistakes. Our current mode of whitewashing history keeps us from learning from their mistakes and instead try to emulate many of them.

His life is full of symbolism and fulfilled prophecy, IMO. This is something I can’t deny and I stand in awe of it. We must learn to look past the literal and learn what these symbols are teaching us.

We do not know what JS knew. We don’t know how God was using him. We can see that he had 7 good spiritual years and 7 years of spiritual famine. Surly that glosses over many of the mistakes he made during the course of his life, but it is apparent to me that even an outward “sinner” can receive revelation.

There was a turning point in church history. I agree with others who believe it happened when the Kirtland Temple was defiled and an apostacy took place. Things happened at that time that needed to be repented of.

*Marriage is often used as an allegory for our relationship with God.

-Is it possible that the church falling into polygamy is an allegory for their fall into the worship of false gods?

I find these scriptures relevant:

Isa. 66: 4

4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

2 Thes. 2: 11

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The saints were busy building Masonic lodges in Nauvoo when they were supposed to be building the temple. When the body of the church strays from God, they believe lies.

Perhaps we miss the mark by focusing on JS. Maybe it is the church that was fallen.

[Author]

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