- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
LookingHard wrote:
I don’t get why Elder Holland was going around saying, “You had better have your testimonies strong before conference as it will be test your faith”.
He doesn’t want members to have a patty-cake, taffy-pull experience.
SilentDawning wrote:
3. You need fewer teachers now. People only have to teach twice a month rather than four times a month. This leaves more people for other callings. You could even put your best people into teaching positions and still have more people available for other work in the ward. Taken with combining the priesthood quorums, this frees up a lot of time.It gives people teaching lessons two weeks to prepare the lesson. Yeah, I think a lot of people are going to start preparing Saturday night before the lesson or even during SM, but if I were an instructor I would use the full two weeks to prepare.
SilentDawning wrote:
4. 3 hour church was a major stumbling block for my parents when I first joined the church. They thought that was excessive. This addresses that fact, although my parents would never consider getting involved with Mormonism.That’s an interesting point. I remember many people “investigating” the church (man that phrase rubs me wrong) that balked at the idea of 3 hour church. I wonder whether the move to 2 hours will help with the effort to get people to join the church.
SilentDawning wrote:
So, yes, it’s a good change, although i wish they cut out all the boring one-way talks in Sacrament and kept the two-way meetings for Ph/RS and also SS. But it’s a step in the right direction, regardless of the motives of the church in doing so.
There’s a subtle change that came with the two hour block, one hour SM. I don’t know whether it is policy or just my experiences but SM typically lasts about 75-80 minutes. If we go shorter the BP will fill the remaining time until we hit the 75-80 minute allotment. I’ve also seen SM go as long as
1 hour, 45 minuteswith individual speakers going over a half hour. Limiting SM to one hour will hopefully help tighten up the meeting, IMO you start to lose the crowd after 10 minutes or so anyway, I don’t know why we assign 15 minute talks… must be to fill all the prescribed time. Not to derail, but it’s my experience that GC and PH classes can be one way lectures too. I think it’s a function of class size. The larger the class, the more tendency there is for it to become a one way lecture.
I kind of like SM if only because it gives me a chance to hear a lecture from more than just the same two people each Sunday (GD teacher and EQ instructor). A few things:
1) If the GD instructor and PH/RS instructors aren’t that engaging… you’re stuck. You’ll be hearing lectures from them and only them until they are released.
2) My lament at church is that hardly anyone has a voice. Often I mean input, here I’ll say “opportunity.” If you aren’t assigned to be the GD or PH/RS instructor you never get an opportunity to give boring lectures
It’s not really what I mean when I say having a voice at church, but SM gives opportunities to hear from more than the same three or four people and it gives you an opportunity to be a lecturer for a day, where otherwise you’d have to wait for a calling… that you might not want.
The thing I wonder — what data were they looking at when they decided to make all these changes?I am proceeding on the assumption that the higher ups make decisions much like managers do in large organizations. They have reports and numbers that inform their impressions. What data inspired a kinder, gentler, more effective home teaching program? What data inspired two hour church? What data inspired combining the priesthood quorums?
It’s not too hard to see that public opinion informed changes that elevate the voice of women in the church. Movements by Kate Kelly clearly probably had something to do with those changes, even though she paid a high price for the change of which she was a part.
We will probably never know. What I find odd is that for years everyone was proudly stating that “a religion that doesn’t require the sacrifice of all things can’t produce faith sufficient for salvation”. There was pride that it was a hard religion, and often considered a reason for it’s purported success.
Now, they are watering it down (this is not criticism). Fewer meetings, shorter church, less demanding programs with less hassling of the members.
While I’m not advocating a change back to the ineffective hardship of years past, I wonder how they are justifying these changes given the historical attitudes of how good it is to require sacrifice. Also, this historical attitude that “if you don’t enjoy church its your own fault”. These changes seem to shift the burden away from the member — in these attempts to make structural changes to improve the experience.
[Aside: I want to say that my wife and I were talking. We were lamenting how in past Wards, throughout our last 30 years in the church, we normally ended up heads of auxiliaries with normally two lame duck counselors. People on whom we couldn’t rely for jack diddly. The new changes may well allow you to put three strong people into a presidency so you can actually DO SOMETHING in the average ward].
I like SDs comments about his wife and how much better this is for primary callings. So true. So very true. LookingHard wrote:
I don’t get why Elder Holland was going around saying, “You had better have your testimonies strong before conference as it will be test your faith”. What? There is NOBODY that is upset with this. Maybe Elder Holland thought people loved every minute of the 3 hour block. I have seen nothing but smiles and happy words.
Perhaps he’s tapped into a segment of the church that has been around for so long, they would find these changes radical. Not us. To us, these changes seem welcome, and perhaps even a bit insufficient given our unorthodoxy. But to long standing members, they could be significant and maybe even unsettling.
One problem the church has is this — when EVERYTHING IS INSPIRED, how do you justify significant changes to inspired programs? Does it imply that old ways of doing things were never inspired? This can rock testimony. My testimony was already in the crapper when they came out with the gospel essays disavowing the priesthood ban, so it presented no challenge. And their disavowal only confirmed that what passes for doctrine is often someone’s erroneous opinion — including a prophet who “will never lead the membership astray”. It didn’t affect my testimony. But it could have been hard on long time faithfuls — which is probably why they were buried in an obscure corner of LDS.org
But the “everything is inspired” culture makes it very hard on people’s testimonies when there are radical changes.
I think his comments were directed at orthodox, long time members rather than people like us.
Elder Cook said the following:
Quote:“Our purpose is to balance the church and home experience to increase faith,” Elder Cook said.
“This new shift will help our members focus on deepening conversion to God and Jesus Christ, strengthening families and individuals through home study, staying focused on the sacrament, and helping those on both sides of the veil through missionary work and temple work,” Elder Cook added. This will also leave more time for home and family evenings any time of the week.
My concern is for the members who are not in a traditional family setting. Old couples, single adults who live alone. Widows, single mothers, etc.
For some in my ward, I would assume this (3) hour block could be the height of their spiritual & social experience for the week.
Now the time has been cut by a third. For some people that’s a lot. It would be easy to rationalize: I might as well stay home for the (2) hours too. Some people in our ward take public transportation that takes 45-6o minutes each way. They could spend more time going to church than being in church. If the church wants to really “minister” we would emphasize inviting people into our home or have more social contacts with the extra time. “Deepening our conversion to God and Jesus Christ” is a noble goal. I visualize it could give us more time to watch football & baseball games on TV.
IMO.
LookingHard wrote:
I don’t get why Elder Holland was going around saying, “You had better have your testimonies strong before conference as it will be test your faith”.
I want to revisit this.
Not a fan, I think it’s manipulative. I’ll employ hyperbole to explain.
Only wicked people that have rejected the spirit of god will disagree with what I’m about to say!
It’s an attempt to stamp out criticism before it’s even had the chance to get off the ground. It’s nothing new, it can be found all over scripture, I’ve probably done it twice since I’ve got out of bed today.
Anyone that takes issue with anything said in conference didn’t have a strong enough testimony. Your faith was tested. You failed.
Minyan Man wrote:
Elder Cook said the following:
Quote:“Our purpose is to balance the church and home experience to increase faith,” Elder Cook said.
“This new shift will help our members focus on deepening conversion to God and Jesus Christ, strengthening families and individuals through home study, staying focused on the sacrament, and helping those on both sides of the veil through missionary work and temple work,” Elder Cook added. This will also leave more time for home and family evenings any time of the week.
My concern is for the members who are not in a traditional family setting. Old couples, single adults who live alone. Widows, single mothers, etc.
For some in my ward, I would assume this (3) hour block could be the height of their spiritual & social experience for the week.
Now the time has been cut by a third. For some people that’s a lot. It would be easy to rationalize: I might as well stay home for the (2) hours too. Some people in our ward take public transportation that takes 45-6o minutes each way. They could spend more time going to church than being in church. If the church wants to really “minister” we would emphasize inviting people into our home or have more social contacts with the extra time. “Deepening our conversion to God and Jesus Christ” is a noble goal. I visualize it could give us more time to watch football & baseball games on TV.
IMO.
Was anything said about forming informal study groups?
I had the same thought MM. My MIL is in her 70s and lives church and all the interactions. I’m not sure shorter church is what she wanted. Our Ward has started a group they refer to as “golden girls” and the RS has meetings for 70 and older (but all are welcome) to get together and have time together.
I think there are ways to meet needs of individuals without making everyone suffer.
nibbler wrote:
Minyan Man wrote:
Elder Cook said the following:
Quote:“Our purpose is to balance the church and home experience to increase faith,” Elder Cook said.
“This new shift will help our members focus on deepening conversion to God and Jesus Christ, strengthening families and individuals through home study, staying focused on the sacrament, and helping those on both sides of the veil through missionary work and temple work,” Elder Cook added. This will also leave more time for home and family evenings any time of the week.
My concern is for the members who are not in a traditional family setting. Old couples, single adults who live alone. Widows, single mothers, etc.
For some in my ward, I would assume this (3) hour block could be the height of their spiritual & social experience for the week.
Now the time has been cut by a third. For some people that’s a lot. It would be easy to rationalize: I might as well stay home for the (2) hours too. Some people in our ward take public transportation that takes 45-6o minutes each way. They could spend more time going to church than being in church. If the church wants to really “minister” we would emphasize inviting people into our home or have more social contacts with the extra time. “Deepening our conversion to God and Jesus Christ” is a noble goal. I visualize it could give us more time to watch football & baseball games on TV.
IMO.
Was anything said about forming informal study groups?
Yes. They also warned about programmizing it.
Minyan Man wrote:
Elder Cook said the following:
Quote:“Our purpose is to balance the church and home experience to increase faith,” Elder Cook said.
“This new shift will help our members focus on deepening conversion to God and Jesus Christ, strengthening families and individuals through home study, staying focused on the sacrament, and helping those on both sides of the veil through missionary work and temple work,” Elder Cook added. This will also leave more time for home and family evenings any time of the week.
My concern is for the members who are not in a traditional family setting. Old couples, single adults who live alone. Widows, single mothers, etc.
For some in my ward, I would assume this (3) hour block could be the height of their spiritual & social experience for the week.
Now the time has been cut by a third. For some people that’s a lot. It would be easy to rationalize: I might as well stay home for the (2) hours too. Some people in our ward take public transportation that takes 45-6o minutes each way. They could spend more time going to church than being in church. If the church wants to really “minister” we would emphasize inviting people into our home or have more social contacts with the extra time. “Deepening our conversion to God and Jesus Christ” is a noble goal. I visualize it could give us more time to watch football & baseball games on TV.
IMO.
As I’ve had time to consider this change further, I’m more worried than ever for the “marginal” members of my ward.
By marginal I mean poor, single & minority. In SLC you have access to a ward, it seems, within walking distance of where you live.
In a large metropolitan city it can be a sacrifice for people to get to church. Especially in the central city.
We have offered to pick people up & drive them but, for whatever reason, they are reluctant to accept our offer.
Maybe I’m worrying for nothing. I’m sure we will receive further enlightenment.
Minyan Man wrote:
I’m more worried than ever for the “marginal” members of my ward.By marginal I mean poor, single & minority.
Perhaps that is where better understanding of “ministering” will come into play? Those that have needs to be met…should be ministered to appropriately.
But the risk is, they won’t and may be forgotten. With any change comes some risk, I think.
I hope we figure it out so it is better overall for everyone.
Heber13 wrote:
Perhaps that is where better understanding of “ministering” will come into play? Those that have needs to be met…should be ministered to appropriately.But the risk is, they won’t and may be forgotten. With any change comes some risk, I think.
One of the churches where we participate has “small groups”. They can be whatever people are interested in. Scrapbooking, Quilting, Board games, Family night activity with food, service, hiking, mountain biking, etc.
I feel that these groups can be a great way to build friendships with your fellow church members.
Roy wrote:
One of the churches where we participate has “small groups”. They can be whatever people are interested in. Scrapbooking, Quilting, Board games, Family night activity with food, service, hiking, mountain biking, etc.I feel that these groups can be a great way to build friendships with your fellow church members.
We have a few groups like that. Unfortunately, there have been several difficulties, which have caused my wife in particular to feel left out and isolated from the other sister’s in the ward. Other wards, it’s been great! But my point is, it’s largely down to the luck of the draw, and will often make it more difficult for those caught on the sidelines to feel included. I am also worried that the loss of the third hour will exacerbate the problem. While I absolutely love the change, I do think there will be some challenges that need addressing. Ward fellowship is one of them.
I think the Church is trying to address these problems, especially with the “new” ministering program. I like it that the Church is changing and trying new things. But progress is never linear, and there are multiple dimensions.
dande48 wrote:
progress is never linear, and there are multiple dimensions.
Amen!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.