Uh-oh, I opened up the polygamy can of worms

[Anonymous]

IF any of these tradding/sharing/coming together w/e agreements were to happen in “Heaven” – none of us have it right.

BUT of course since I have prayed about it I believe my idea is most correct . Sarcasm.

One-The only equation will NOT be 1 Man + Many Women. It is ridiculous. If one person (male or female) can love more than one “spouse” that does not mean men get to be with different women they love and Well the woman gets her one husband( plus all the wonderful sister wives ). – Sexism at it’s best. Not going to happen.

I believe if something like this were to happen we would ALL strangely be intertwined/connected.

Or for a more simple response that cancels out all of the confusion for me is .. it was all a big mistake. ( Either purposefully or wrongly imagined).

And btw .. I know a certain someone who is not as bothered by polygamy/polyandry as much as I am .. That would be DH. Or maybe he just doesn’t care to talk about it .. but we have certainly argued about it more than once .. He has come up with his own conclusions on why and how a man ( AND ONLY A MAN ) must/could have thousands of wives … I almost throw up everytime I think about it. I can’t wait to kick him when we are both dead .. And say ” I told you so .. “

[Anonymous]

LaLaLove wrote:

Or for a more simple response that cancels out all of the confusion for me is .. it was all a big mistake. ( Either purposefully or wrongly imagined).

You said it sister!!

LaLaLove wrote:

I can’t wait to kick him when we are both dead .. And say ” I told you so .. “

I in no way shape or form condone kicking people (especially when they’re dead, but this really made me laugh 😆 😆 😆

[Anonymous]

jmb,

Great post. I’m right with you. I love your soul.

Re: Whether there is any good in the church

[Anonymous]

LaLaLove wrote:

Or for a more simple response that cancels out all of the confusion for me is .. it was all a big mistake. ( Either purposefully or wrongly imagined).

As jmb said, yup. Now, there are two totally separate issues here: First, was LDS polygamy good? Most of us say “No!” Second, what is heaven like?

I want to sincerely implore that to help with the second question, those of us who believe in an afterlife consider seriously taking some extended time to peruse in depth the material at http://www.near-death.com . I really believe that having dozens of near death experience accounts under our belts is a highly valuable tool for our spiritual movement forward. http://www.near-death.com is a wonderful starting place, and http://www.iands.org is also good. If you want democratic, non-hierarchal, direct-from heaven, transcendent, everyday, life-changing religion, look no further. Read and read and read, synthesize, correlate, and understand.

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

No! I am here because it is my tribe, it has promise, it has yet things to teach me, and it needs me.

One of my early breakthroughs was a very clear distinction in my mind between being a “Mormon” and being a member of “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” As you have indicated, Mormon is what I am. It is in my blood, in my heritage, and is my childhood. I cannot divorce that from my life. The “church” on the other hand is merely a man-made organization (and not a very efficient one at that, similar to most other religions who continually fail to learn from modern democracies). I think this is why, for me, staying a “member” of the church is largely irrelevant from a spiritual point of view. From a social point of view however, as you have said, it is my tribe, they are my people. I have largely outgrown the church IMO. As Fowler points out, most modern religions are designed to keep people at a stage 3.

Going back to my signal processing thing, continuing to be a member of the church means that I have had to invent a filter of sorts (and I hear many on this forum speak of a similar thing). Whenever I go to church, listen to conference, etc. I have to put on the filter so that I can “retranslate,” “reinterpret,” or otherwise filter the words and apply them in a way that is meaningful to me. I still get frustrated at times and sometimes just end up reading an article, or book during especially difficult diatribe.

I still have much to learn about the rest of the world around me!! I am anxious for the journey!

p.s. ooh, I actually have become very interested in near death experiences. My rational mind has a hard time with it I must confess, but I am at least interested in the mythology involved!

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

LaLaLove wrote:

Or for a more simple response that cancels out all of the confusion for me is .. it was all a big mistake. ( Either purposefully or wrongly imagined).

As jmb said, yup. Now, there are two totally separate issues here: First, was LDS polygamy good? Most of us say “No!” Second, what is heaven like?

I want to sincerely implore that to help with the second question, those of us who believe in an afterlife consider seriously taking some extended time to peruse in depth the material at http://www.near-death.com . I really believe that having dozens of near death experience accounts under our belts is a highly valuable tool for our spiritual movement forward. http://www.near-death.com is a wonderful starting place, and http://www.iands.org is also good. If you want democratic, non-hierarchal, direct-from heaven, transcendent, everyday, life-changing religion, look no further. Read and read and read, synthesize, correlate, and understand.

I’m sure LDS polygamy was good for some in the early Church. I believe it is good for some in the present as well.

The only problem I have with it is the way in which it was/is presented. I don’t believe a woman would be killed by an angel with a flaming sword if she were to decline the doctrine. I don’t believe practicing it would have given your family golden tickets into the CK. I don’t believe it to be fair that young girls in polygamist groups now are isolated/born into and spoon fed it from birth. I believe it was in a sense, spiritual rape ( Stolen Wording* ). Which I think includes indoctrination/guilt/punishment/loss of agency .. my list could go on. – Then again my definition of good is subjective.-Maybe all of those things are good to some.

And Heaven .. I believe there is something. And I believe it will be good. My definition of good includes many things-And I am confident they will all be there.

I will check out the sites!

[Anonymous]

LaLaLove wrote:

I’m sure LDS polygamy was good for some in the early Church.

I actually agree with this in the sense of the statement of Jesus that “it is necessary that there be offenses” but “wo unto him by whom they come!” Many women and probably men also were made more holy as they let go of everything to follow the instructions of their guru Joseph. If they had chosen a better different guru, it would have been better? But perhaps submitting willingly even to a bad/poor guru is a holy thing? [edited by user] If Joseph had always been inspired, the end result may have been better? Or perhaps submitting willingly to a guru even when he is wrong can be a holy thing? I tell my children, “If somebody tells you to do something, and you don’t know it to be wrong, do it. It will be good for you.” This is a difficult and tricky concept. This doesn’t mean leaders are better to be wrong. It merely means that personal spiritual growth can occur under all external conditions. This is a common underlying belief of the apostle Paul’s epistles. It doesn’t mean that the Lord will never suffer in His program a leader to go awry. It merely means that the people are always individually responsible for their own strayings and homecomings.

[Anonymous]

Fwiw, “bad/poor guru” is a bit over-the-top for me.

[Anonymous]

Hmm. Ray, I am troubled and sad because I am having a hard time understanding your feelings. I want to be more understanding than I apparently am here.

Joseph Smith was a prophet. A true prophet of heaven. I never have at any time in my mind or with my lips denied that. I really and truly believe it. I see it with my spiritual eyes. I am amazed by his connectedness with Heaven.

I still need to work on this. Maybe we can PM about it.

Tom

[Anonymous]

It’s cool, Tom. Really, it is. It was just a personal statement about my own perspective.

It’s just my sensitivity to personal descriptions. I meant nothing by it other than what I said – that I can’t bring myself to call Joseph a “bad/poor guru” despite his many faults and weaknesses. I can understand others saying that; I just can’t use those words, myself. That’s all.

Frankly, I think it’s a great example of how we can word/frame things differently but still share a core belief – which I think is a GREAT example of maintaining the orchestra Elder Wirthlin described.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

I can’t bring myself to call Joseph a “bad/poor guru” despite his many faults and weaknesses.

“Labeling” seems to have been the problem, and I agree with you. I probably would not have directly called him one either, because I do not believe it’s appropriate to call people in this world either good or bad. But the implication as I framed it was too close for comfort, I can see. I regret it. The post is now fixed.

*hugs*

[Anonymous]

LaLaLove wrote:

I can’t wait to kick him when we are both dead .. And say ” I told you so .. “

Oh my… I think you and I are kindred spirits Lala! 😆

Great thread guys… I guess I really did open up a can of worms!

I also have to say how impressed I am with how polite you are to each other even when you disagree… what a great bunch of people you are!

[Anonymous]

Yeah, asha, that’s one of the reasons I love this forum – and the atmosphere we are trying to cultivate. There will be angst and confusion and some venting and bitterness about certain things at first, and there’s nothing at wrong with that, but in the end we are working toward peace and acceptance (of some sort, framed individually in a way that works) and positive movement forward – and I can promise it is possible.

[Anonymous]

.

[Anonymous]

Morzen, I absolutely love that joke.

I’ll show my own twisted sense of humor a bit with a joke that fits the general topic of this thread. If anyone is offended by non-explicit references to sex and ethno-religious stereotypes in a joke, feel free to skip this:

“When couples die together (like in a car accident), they get to go through a special processing line at the pearly gates – one that is much shorter and faster. One day, there were only three couples waiting to be processed.

St. Peter said to the first, Jewish man, “You lived a good life and generally tried to follow God’s word as you knew it. You would qualify for heaven, but you have one over-riding flaw that disqualifies you. You were addicted to filty lucre, loving money more than your fellow man. That’s why you married a woman named Penny. I’m sorry, but you can’t enter the Kingdom of God.”

The first couple walked off disappointed, and St. Peter turned to the second, Irish-Catholic man, saying, “”You lived a good life and generally tried to follow God’s word as you knew it. You would qualify for heaven, but you have one over-riding flaw that disqualifies you. You were addicted to spirits, loving alcohol more than your fellow man. That’s why you married a woman named Brandy. I’m sorry, but you can’t enter the Kingdom of God.”

The third man, a Mormon, turned to his wife and said, “We don’t have a chance, Fanny.”

[Author]

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