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Joni wrote:
I actually brought this up with my husband last night and he gave me the kneejerk response: nope, not okay ever, not if you’re married, not under any circumstances. I think he must have heard the same talks as a lot of you
šÆ so I don’t think we can expect any kind of clarification.I do think it’s really unfair how the Lord designed our bodies differently. It’s almost impossible for a healthy, functioning male
notto experience orgasm as the result of regular, garden-variety sex. And it’s almost impossible for a woman to. (This is a fact I’ve even seen acknowledged in LDS-centric sex books!) To me, that is another sign of how much the Lord prefers men over women, that he loves and respects males a lot more than he does females. Because the kind of sex that is generally regarded as kosher in the LDS faith is going to result in a male orgasm but not a female one. I even explained this to my husband and he didn’t have a good response, but he still will not back down on the “masturbation is always wrong, always” viewpoint. His argument is that masturbation is selfish and one-sided. Of course, regular ol’ intercourse can also be selfish and one-sided but that has the Lord’s stamp of approval (and it’s almost always one-sided in the favor of the male).
I don’t think it’s wrong within a marriage and several posters have mentioned situations where it’s even been encouraged by PH leaders. I would never judge or condemn a married couple who has decided it’s within healthy and appropriate boundaries for their marriage. But as much as I may want to, I can’t do it knowing that my husband is opposed to it.
There was a time when I’d said “no, no way!” Over time I became aware of my prejudices being based on old assumptions and I also became more aware of the different biology of men and women. Your husband probably said “no” as a defensive action, an insecurity about not fulfilling needs, being inadequate, you having sexual experience without him there and the fear that this could lead to you having less interest in sex with him and potentially leading to you looking at/thinking of other people. Give it time, let it settle.
I don’t think it’s evidence that God loves women less. I think it’s a basic evolutionary trait (by divine design or not, who knows). To perpetuate humanity the male needs to be able to provide his part of the bargain “on demand.” As lovely as intimacy is, it’s not really the main function of sex. We like to think it is, and it is of course a lovely, wonderful part of life and a meaningful relationship. But that’s not the primary function. It was designed first to procreate. I’m in no way saying “like it or lump it,” I’m just pointing out why human biology might be designed that way.
If this next bit gets too ‘R’ rated mods, feel free to edit. And apologies if Joni this isn’t what you asked. What if you asked him about masturbation while you were together? “Assisted” masturbation. There’s a good book for him to
read here[
Admin Note: There is nothing in this comment that is out of line or needs to be edited.] Joni wrote:I actually brought this up with my husband last night and he gave me the kneejerk response: nope, not okay ever, not if you’re married, not under any circumstances. I think he must have heard the same talks as a lot of you
šÆ so I don’t think we can expect any kind of clarification.I do think it’s really unfair how the Lord designed our bodies differently. It’s almost impossible for a healthy, functioning male
notto experience orgasm as the result of regular, garden-variety sex. And it’s almost impossible for a woman to. (This is a fact I’ve even seen acknowledged in LDS-centric sex books!) To me, that is another sign of how much the Lord prefers men over women, that he loves and respects males a lot more than he does females. Because the kind of sex that is generally regarded as kosher in the LDS faith is going to result in a male orgasm but not a female one. I even explained this to my husband and he didn’t have a good response, but he still will not back down on the “masturbation is always wrong, always” viewpoint. His argument is that masturbation is selfish and one-sided. Of course, regular ol’ intercourse can also be selfish and one-sided but that has the Lord’s stamp of approval (and it’s almost always one-sided in the favor of the male).
I don’t think it’s wrong within a marriage and several posters have mentioned situations where it’s even been encouraged by PH leaders. I would never judge or condemn a married couple who has decided it’s within healthy and appropriate boundaries for their marriage. But as much as I may want to, I can’t do it knowing that my husband is opposed to it.
Well, then, he’s not keeping up with current church teachings on the subject, but then again, there are lots of others in that boat. While there are definitely those whom I won’t name here that seem to have been obsessed with the subject, the official church stance is very muted from earlier times. If a sin at all, it is a lesser sin IMO.
Quote:It’s fairly rare that when a man is asked whether he’d like to “spice things up” that he says no.
Unless he is part of a conservative religious community and was taught that sex is necessary but dirty or dangerous.
I get frustrated when Mormons see sex as dirty, since that’s the exact opposite of what our theology teaches, but we obsess so much over it being dangerous (especially in the formative years) that it often morphs for too many members into a version of “dirty” – and we tend to tie that danger to the physical pleasure part of sex, which can lead to difficulty for members to “let loose” and “spice things up”.
I hope your husband can begin to see things differently, but, even if it does happen, it might take a while. The issue isn’t strictly or even primarily a religious thing; it fundamentally is a biological difference in understanding, as mackay11 said.
I would tell your husband, ” don’t knock it until you try it”. There is nothing sexier than to see your parter feel fulfilled. Youāll probably get so many different opinions. My wife and I have been married for 14 years now with three kids. Not once did I ever think we both be okay with self pleasure until just this year.
She obviously doesnāt crave intimacy like I do (is it a guy thing?! Yeah probably) so we are both 100% onboard with keeping our bedroom life to us and if she needs to release so goes for it. If I need to I go for it and when we are both on board we then are able to do it together.
I think it has eased a lot of pent up tension for me because Iām a guy and I enjoy it and it takes less for me to release than it does for her and so instead of nagging her about it all the time, we are both okay just doing it for ourselves whenever we feel the need to.
I donāt feel any less worthy and it has strengthened our marriage big time! So, as long as you and your significant other are both okay with it, go for it!
She probably uses a variety of things 1-2x a week while I am more frequent and it helps me sleep better when sheās working graveyards sometimes!
Hope that hells!
I really do think that this is becoming a generational thing with the “younger” couples not really seeing porn free self-stimulation in marriage as a problem. I observe that professionals like Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife are helping to create greater acceptance around this area of what might be acceptable in the intimate lives of husbands and wives.
Church leaders have remained quiet on it for a long time. That is probably just about the best thing we could hope for under the circumstances.
There was a time when leaders were asking whether the members were “mouthing their wives” or equivalent statements to women. I have read posts and also listened to a recording of an ex-member where leaders asked this question. They eventually stopped asking those questions presumably due to member backlash. I don’t know when this happened — it was before I was married 25 years ago. But I believe it happened. My position on self-stimulation is that in some cases, it actually holds marriages together. In situations where one spouse can’t perform sexually, or won’t participate in any sex act , it is a way of relieving tension. Whether it’s OK to use pornography with it is an other question I won’t try to tackle here, but I agree with the consensus that the church has no place in the bedrooms of married or single folk acting alone.
This is one of those questions I’ve always wondered about but was afraid to ask. The other alternatives in a sexless marriage include celibacy, adultery or heading in the direction of rape. This is one of those delicate subjects that are a little awkward/uncomfortable to get into much. š³ Logically I could go the route of arguing that it’s all self-stimulation one way or the other, the only difference is if you’re only dealing w/one body or more than one. And that, to boot, the real sensations all take place in the brain anyway. But bad relationship habits reinforce more dysfunctional relationships, so you have to consider that aspect if you expect to be involved in any kind of in-person relationships going forward.
I am new to this site and this is my first post. The title of this thread is the reason I joined. Similar to someone else I have always wondered about this subject but was afraid to ask. I believe, and hope, my post is appropriate, Here are a few of my random and even contradictory thoughts.
Masturbation link to porn is always sin and should not happened.
However, if someone has intense sexual arousal, and they cannot have sexual intimacy with their spouse for a good reason (e.g., spouse has cancer and radiation treatment makes him/her ill), I can see where masturbation could be helpful to manage intense sexual arousal. I am a male, have been marred for close to 30 years and the younger me would have stated masturbation is always wrong. But having a male friend who confided in me that this is how he managed sexual tension due to his wife having a significant health problem, I can see how masturbation in this situation may not be sinful or a sin that is less serious.
Where I struggle is on the concept of self-control and how we need to control our bodies. Three or so ago, my wife had to travel for over a month due to a family matter in her family or origin and it was the fist time in our marriage we had to be apart for over a week. I was shocked at the level of sexual intensity I experienced after about two weeks, and I was not looking or thinking of anything inappropriate. I think it was my normal body responding that was out of a 25-year rhythm, but I was surprised, and it helped me have empathy for the LDS friend I have written about above.
In thinking about it how we as Saints need to control our bodies, I found Gandhi’s experiment in “sexual celibacy” to be fascinating. After his wife died to prove he could control his body he slept naked with two young women (both, or course, who consented). He did this to prove he could control his body. The best I can tell is that sometimes be was able to prove to himself he could control his body, but there were reports of some āaccidentsā (not sure what that means). I know as Saints we would never do such a test of self-control, rather we would not put ourselves in such situations, but I have begun to wonder how much control we have over sexual tension related to how our bodies have been designed.
Looking for thoughts from others.
skipper wrote:
… rather we would not put ourselves in such situations, but I have begun to wonder how much control we have over sexual tension related to how our bodies have been designed.Looking for thoughts from others.
I have started a response 3 different times in 3 different directions… it’s an open-ended question.
I don’t think that we have much control over what arouses us physically. Men seem to know from a pretty young age what their orientation is like and it remains fairly static. Women have the heavy imposition of hormones, executive functioning/responsibility concerns, and the expectation of sexual gate-keeping that tend to mute a women’s sexuality. Women’s orientation also seems more fluid in general and mutable by trauma from a variety of types of abuse.
What control we have is limited to the meaning(s) we find in the situation, and what we do about the situation. We can also control what substances “we are under the influence of” to a specific degree. We can control what our brain dwells on (up to a specific degree). We can analyze and assess what our conscious and subconscious expectations of the situation(s) are and what we can expect from them.
Gender matters in terms of the hormones we are under the influence of and the timing of them in a lot of ways that are being scientifically explored. In some cases, medications are prescribed to return individuals back to previous levels of activity – for good and for ill.
I tend to think that a “Care and Consent” approach is a better moral framework then a “Purity” approach by and large. It is also a far riskier approach because those who are doing the consenting are building “the rules of engagement” as it were rather then wholesale importing pre-existing “rules”. This is even riskier because our culture does not respect or fully authorize women to create the rules, which creates relational power and authority imbalances and the consequences of limited experience.
Amy: I do not understand how the “Care and Consent” approach is connected to the topic at hand, self-stimulation. Do you mind explaining?
I believe I am a kindred spirit recognizing there are authority imbalances related to gender. But I am also not sure how you see this as relevant to the subject matter.
If I may ask, are you extending this topic from masturbation to sexual orientation?
In no way am I arguing against you I am trying to understand you better.
This topic started exploring when self-stimulation may be a way to “care” for self and when that care replaces/supplements other activities. There are specific scenarios cited (seriously ill spouse for example) that speculate about maybe in those circumstances, the “self-care” is a greater overall kindness to both partners. The question of “consent” enters the equation because of personal ethical questions (“is this a good behavior for me” and “How does this behavior impact my partner?”). Our religious culture has very specific stances that reframe the questions as “right or wrong” and completely bypass the personal nature of the ethical questions.
But we believe and teach that our sexual behaviors matter on a soul level. We focus on how sex is supposed to be elevating because it strengthens relationships and produces children. We expect of ourselves that sex is a way to connect others and is the primary relationship glue available (and penalize asexuality accordingly). We shame ourselves regularly for not living up to or wanting to live up to that expectation. We let the purity of those expectations block out the “care and consent” conversations that need to happen about what 1 partner can expect from another behavior in terms of sexual ethics and sexual conduct.
I had been thinking that sexual orientation would be tied to how one judges the act of masturbation, but now I am re-thinking that.
I have been a member of a facebook group connected to the work of LDS Relationship & Sexuality Coach Dr. Finlayson-Fife. One advantage of this group is to observe and engage with lots of LDS couples that might have different sexual patterns and practices in their marriages and are still believing and Temple Recommend Card carrying members. https://www.finlayson-fife.com/ Members of our church have the same sort of hangups common to many religious groups but then we add out our unique LDS flavoring to them.
There has not been anything that we might consider official from approved church sources on this topic in a good while. The For The Strength of Youth pamphlet offers some suggestions for young people. It says to not do anything that would generate sexual excitement in yourself or in others. It noticeably does not call self-stimulation a sin. How might this apply to adults – married or unmarried? About a decade ago, the BYU-I president was interviewed on the subject. He was asked if self stimulation is a sin and he said that it is an action the could lead to sin (he declined to label self-stimulation a sin in and of itself).
skipper wrote:
I was shocked at the level of sexual intensity I experienced after about two weeks, and I was not looking or thinking of anything inappropriate. I think it was my normal body responding that was out of a 25-year rhythm, but I was surprised
In referencing skipper’s experience above, I would also argue that NOT engaging in self-stimulation could lead to sexual dysregulation and intensity that could lead to sin.
I feel that it is positive that our church leaders are not giving us rules to govern the marital bedroom (other than the general rule of consent and upliftment). I understand that they are reluctant to say that XYZ is ok for married peoples. This means that married adults are in an area where everything is not black and white, sin vs. not sin, and easily delineated. They must determine for themselves with their partner what is helpful within their own relationships and not seek for outside approval. For myself, I have found it helpful to understand that lots of LDS couples draw the boundaries of their sexual patterns and practices in very different ways and that is ok.
I appreciate the thoughtful and mature comments of Amy and Roy. I believe that masturbation that is focused on the creation of sexual excitement in oneself or in others is sinful and that watching pornography is always sinful. I also see it as being selfish. However, I believe masturbation to stop sexual tension when a spouse cannot be intimate (e.g. oneās partner has an illness) is a care toward other ethic and care toward self ethic. It can be thoughtful. I think if this person has tried their best to not masturbate and lower sexual tension, has prayed and still cannot lower or stop it and it gets more intense day by day, this I see as either not a sin or a low-level sin that can be repeated of by a bedside. I agree with Roy, that NOT engaging in self-stimulation could lead to intensity that could lead to sin. The Lord knows our intentions. And hopefully this prevents the shame that Amy has wisely augmented.
The part I have began to struggle with, in the last few years, is this realization that I may have less self-control over sexual arousal and the physical response (male). As I shared, three years ago my wife had to travel for over a month due to a family matter and it was the first time in our marriage we had to be apart for over a week. I was shocked at the level of sexual intensity I experienced after about two weeks, and it got more intense each day. I then tried to distract and each day it was building. I have now linked that to a friend whose wife is going through cancer treatment who feels guilt/shame that he is still feeling sexual arousal and cannot act on it and have wondered if I could exercise self-control if I were in his shoes. I would like to think I could but based on when my wife had to visit family for over I month, I could not. When I have had other experiences with needing to sustain from sexual intimacy (e.g. birth of a child) it seems like after two weeks self-control is lost as the feelings become intense, compounding daily.
My mind then goes on two different pathways, if in the future I had to sustain from sexual intimacy for over a month. One pathway goes to Gandhi’s experiment in “sexual celibacy” where he reports he could control his body as he slept naked with two young women on each side of him. I would never conduct such an experiment, but that sort of self-control moves me (although, again, there were reports of accidents, which I think he had physical arousal but nothing else). The other pathway is that masturbation self-control and management, rooted in care of self and other.
In the last few years I have thought more on how I think it is odd that God created men who seem to have not much control over sexual arousal and the physical response. Some studies I have read suggest 25% control (related to distracting, meditation, etc.). And as I have reflected on this, I have also remembered a handful of times that I saw/heard something I did not plan on (e.g. hearing a couple in the next room at a hotel) that had no effect on my wife, but it did with me. I am not suggesting that women do not have similar struggles, but it seems to me that more men might be like I am, and I find myself feeling somewhat disappointment, with some degree of guilt and shame. Not super bad guilt/shame, but clearly some in wanting to be a better person. It is exactly what Amy outlined, not living up to a certain expectation.
Roy where I agree with you (and I think with Amy) is that this is that gray space where we think about next step by relying on prayer and personal revelation. I do not think Bishops and counselors should be asking such question (e.g. do you masturbate), and can preface their understand ONLY when asked by a member (e.g. related to law of chastity question in a Temple recommend interview)
Roy I am going to disagree with you on one point, but I know you shared this in the spirit of trying to be helpful toward me. I want you to know that I see a gift you were trying to give me. However, I believe sexuality and life coach are more money-making frauds than trustworthy experts. I looked at Dr. Finlayson-Fife website and the cost she is charging for classes does not seem ethical to me. With this said, I am an advocate for licensed mental health counselors that are approved through a licensure process. Anyone can be a life coach. But other than this, I deeply appreciate your thoughts.
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