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I read an article somewhere that said that masturbation is responsible for holding certain marriages together. There are some partners who refuse to meet the reasonable sexual needs of their spouse. So that unfulfilled spouse, particularly men, get rid of that painful and distracting erection through masturbation. This fulfils their emotional needs enough that they are able to stay in the marriage happy enough. So, it’s not all bad. You might also argue that single people use masturbation to keep them from committing premarital sex with others.
I am not in the camp that it’s a sin.
On the other hand, I wish with all the might I can muster that God didn’t create us with these desires. They drove me nuts when I was young. Totally nuts and full of guilt for even having sexual thoughts.
There was a line in a movie I’ll never forget:
“The loss of my libido was like being unchained from a lunatic.”
Biology seems to point towards the following: a) Men tend to have a lot more testosterone (especially as teenagers and young adults).
b) Male biology is more sensitive to that testosterone.
– This seems to play out in men literally not being able to control how their body reacts and only being able to make choices about how they handle it. This is probably where that 25% statistic comes into play.
c) Male testosterone is more consistent throughout the lifetime and decreases over decades (as mentioned in this commentary chain).
d) This systemic consistency makes it harder for men to empathize with women who aren’t “in the mood” in part due to biology. The men literally do not have the experience of the hormone shifts that shift and then shift back over weeks.
e) Women’s behavior is more governed by the cyclic interplay between hormones governing fertility. This leads to circumstances where men have been jerks become highly interesting, and men who have gone the extra mile aren’t arousing – and it is not really in the control of the man to change things.
f) Women’s behavior is also heavily influenced by the caregiving cares she feels responsible for. This is why it is hard to “relax” sometimes and why women are charged to do so.
I think that self-stimulation is fine as needed provided that it isn’t being chosen when both parties are equally interested at the same time and the solo act is replacing a mutual activity. I also think that there are time, place, and attention constraints that are in line with daily living.
If anything, I would recommend the men self-stimulate in response to the arousal to get it out of their system so that they can have clearer judgement that is not being divided to dealing with the arousal. But if a man chooses to do so, it is important that they accept accountability for making that decision and not make the narrative that “my partner made me do this” (thus indirectly shaming and generating resentment towards their partner).
skipper wrote:
Roy I am going to disagree with you on one point, but I know you shared this in the spirit of trying to be helpful toward me. I want you to know that I see a gift you were trying to give me. However, I believe sexuality and life coach are more money-making frauds than trustworthy experts. I looked at Dr. Finlayson-Fife website and the cost she is charging for classes does not seem ethical to me. With this said, I am an advocate for licensed mental health counselors that are approved through a licensure process. Anyone can be a life coach. But other than this, I deeply appreciate your thoughts.
I will push back on you gently, Skipper, in the spirit of respect and love. Dr. Finlayson-Fife received her Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from Boston College.
I have not taken any of her classes but I do appreciate the insights and perspectives that I have gained as part of the Facebook group that she created. I have also watched and appreciated insights gained from some YouTube videos that she has created (again, without cost to me).
I do believe that she is in the business of making money, but I also feel that she is motivated to help couples that have struggled for years or decades under patterns that have not been helpful for them.
As a licensed professional, she went into private practice and this makes her somewhat of an entrepreneur (the same as my dentist or optometrist). She writes,
Quote:“When I started my private practice in 2007, it quickly became evident that there was more demand for my relationship advice than I could reasonably sustain. So, in an effort to reach and support a larger audience, I drew upon my training as a mental health counselor, along with my dissertation research, and created five impactful online courses to help couples improve their emotional and sexual relationships.”
She is attempting to meet a need and if she makes a profit from her efforts, I would call that capitalism. I imagine the price for the classes to be set by what is reasonable for these types of classes and counseling sessions in the free market.
To reiterate, many of our members have built their sexual understandings, practices, and patterns on the words of church leadership that have zero training in this field. Some members have suffered with unhelpful or even hurtful patterns for decades. The services of Dr. Finlayson-Fife are, I believe, a godsend to these couples and well worth the money that might be spent.
For my spouse and myself, I feel that we are fairly fortunate in that we are in a pretty good place sexually and this is not our biggest priority with all the tasks related to still having kids in the home. However, when we become empty nesters, I think that it would be nice to re-prioritize our husband and wife relationship and I look forward to a time when we could take a Dr. Finlayson-Fife retreat together. I think that it would be much more helpful and rewarding than a more traditional vacation or cruise. But that’s me and my perspective, your perspective may differ and mileage may vary and that’s ok.
Roy wrote:To reiterate, many of our members have built their sexual understandings, practices, and patterns on the words of church leadership that have zero training in this field. Some members have suffered with unhelpful or even hurtful patterns for decades.
I agree with this AND I think that it even goes beyond the lack of training. I think that men and women were badly hurt by the sexual ethics taught as moral principles by individuals with a specific perspective believing that their words were inspired. In my mind, part of this problem is that these collective understandings, practices, and patterns of behavior were recast as “moral choices” under a gospel teaching label with a “one-size-fits-all” gospel path approach. While there is a lot of overlap between the “morality” of these questions and the “ethics” behind these questions – much damage is done ethically by simplifying the scenarios into moral decisions (with a bias towards black and white thinking). This also masks an unspoken power mismatch because men are assumed to provide more gospel teaching and do so more accurately – while ethical discussions have no inherent gender bias (though may be biased in the favor of women who have been put on a spiritual/”better angel” pedestal).
I think that the primarily male leadership has spoken from mostly a primarily male lens that includes sexuality (with specific social constructs around porn usage and very specific guidelines around what women can wear without censure – yoga pants the most recent culprit), fertility (It’s easier to write off birth control when your body isn’t the one that produces the child and devotes years of care and attention to said child), and even what the meaning behind sexual practices should be (we are cautioned that it’s about “procreation” and “connection”, when it easily becomes also about “control” and “entitlement”).
I appreciate your thought provoking observations, Amy! AmyJ wrote:
I think that men and women were badly hurt by the sexual ethics taught as moral principles by individuals with a specific perspective believing that their words were inspired.
The psychologist side of me* agrees very strongly with this sentiment Amy. I believe church leaders have done great psychological harm to countless young people by such teachings put forth in the way they have done.
*I am not a psychologist but I have worked very closely with psychologists, including psychologists who are church members (mostly less active), and I do have some training and education in the field.
A couple of thoughts since my last post. I realize this topic is moving in a very different direction and am thinking this may be my last post. When it comes to the topic at hand, sexual behavior, I do not see much of a difference between life coaches and church leaders. Both are not being regulated, and both do not have regulated training. Here is a small article form the Salt Lake City Tribune of the abuse that can happen at the hands of of life coaches:
https://www.propublica.org/article/utah-therapists-life-coaches-regulation When a couple has sexual struggles, they need to see an actual licensed professional (counselor, psychologist, social worker) who has expertise in this area. Not a life coach. The key aspect is licensure, not what their degree is in. The granting of a degree is a first step to professional regulation, but there are additional steps. Many people can earn a doctorate in psychology but not be granted status of licensure. Licensure protects clients, you can report such professionals.
Per Amy’s past comment that women can be shamed if a husband masturbate and then blames on their wife, I agree completely. But if a couple is having difficulties, regardless of the sexual issue, if they can work in partnership with a licensed therapist, I believe they have a very good change of managing this better.
It is well known in the fields of counseling that many counselors who get their license suspended or revoked, or who have gone to school for 2-3 years and cannot pass the licensure exam and professional supervision, become life coaches. I would stay away from all and any life coaches.
In no way, whatsoever, am I suggesting people have not been harmed by church leaders. But I have never experienced what some are reporting here or the stories. I have never had a Bishop, or a counselor deviate from a Temple recommend interview and ask if I masturbate. But I am not suggesting that because I have not had such experiences that other have not. And if I did, I would be informing the Stake President.
I recently saw a show on TV that is part of a series called “The Curious case of…”. The episode I saw was called: “The Curious case of Jodi Hildebrandt”. She was a licensed counselor used by the church to do family counseling, etc.
Here is a summary of her life:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodi_Hildebrandt If you have the chance to see this episode, I recommend it. This is an extreme example of how religious beliefs can be
distorted & migrate into our (LDS) culture.
I would trust life coaches over church leaders with this aspect of my life, actually. NOTE: This is the assumption that “life coaches” and “mental health professionals” aren’t overlapping with the same individual in the majority of the time AND that those individuals haven’t been in years of therapy themselves and passing on standard useful mental health guidance they benefitted from and judge to be relevant (and usually are spelled out in some form or another).
a) Life coaches devote a set amount of time and attention to my case (likely a form of pastoral/life care), my circumstances, and my point of view depending on what I am paying for. Church leaders literally are not paid for the set amount of time and attention my case would call for to be genuinely helpful and rely on generic church teaching (male-centric) about sexuality and marriage.
b) Bishops and Stake Presidents are “judges in Israel” – so they are supposed to define “right vs wrong” and “judge” the family situation. This actually usually pits the couple against each other and does nothing to promote any “harm reduction” or connective opportunities. The “judgement” is independent of any pre-existing trauma experienced by the family members and can add trauma and shame to the situation without removing any of the stressors.
c) The life coaches and counselors worth their time have been focused on helping me judge the situation and do better – with “harm reduction” tactics at times. Actual life coaching programs have more training then a bishop or stake president does on ethical practices and mandated reporting.
Minyan Man wrote:
I recently saw a show on TV that is part of a series called “The Curious case of…”. The episode I saw was called:“The Curious case of Jodi Hildebrandt”. She was a licensed counselor used by the church to do family counseling, etc.
Here is a summary of her life:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodi_Hildebrandt If you have the chance to see this episode, I recommend it. This is an extreme example of how religious beliefs can be
distorted & migrate into our (LDS) culture.
I was actually thinking of Jodi Hildebrandt while reading Skipper’s recent post. I agree that individuals should be wary of “Life Coaches.”
P.S. From what I know of Jodi, the religious beliefs became so badly distorted as to be hardly recognizable as LDS
AmyJ wrote:
I would trust life coaches over church leaders with this aspect of my life, actually.
Since I was the one to bring up the work of JFF, let me just say that it seems to be true that there can both be good life coaches and bad life coaches out there (similar to good bishops and bad bishops BTW).
skipper wrote:
When a couple has sexual struggles, they need to see an actual licensed professional (counselor, psychologist, social worker) who has expertise in this area.
That’s great! While we are on the subject of talking to licensed counselors, psychologists, and social workers, it is my belief that they would have no professional problem with masturbation without porn provided that it wasn’t done in a way to harm your partner.
As it turns out, I actually have some relevant experience in this area. My parents took me to a licensed counselor due to my own masturbation problem as a teen. My mother explained to the counselor that my behavior did not align with our religious beliefs and they were looking for help. The counselor said that my behavior was considered normal and healthy for adolescent males and that he couldn’t take me on as a client with the goal of changing that behavior.
Roy wrote:
Minyan Man wrote:
I recently saw a show on TV that is part of a series called “The Curious case of…”. The episode I saw was called:“The Curious case of Jodi Hildebrandt”. She was a licensed counselor used by the church to do family counseling, etc.
Here is a summary of her life:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodi_Hildebrandt If you have the chance to see this episode, I recommend it. This is an extreme example of how religious beliefs can be
distorted & migrate into our (LDS) culture.
I was actually thinking of Jodi Hildebrandt while reading Skipper’s recent post. I agree that individuals should be wary of “Life Coaches.”
P.S. From what I know of Jodi, the religious beliefs became so badly distorted as to be hardly recognizable as LDS
I was also thinking of Hildebrandt, and over the weekend I watched the Hulu docuseries on Ruby Franke (
Devil in the Family) which of course includes quite a bit about Hildebrandt and her influence not only on Ruby Franke, but her husband Kevin and son Chad (as well as others). There’s no question Hildebrandt is a bad apple, and all professions have their bad apples. But Hildebrandt is not the only bad apple in the “life coach” bushel, and not even in that particular area (“Happy Valley” in Utah). Of course Hildebrandt was also a licensed therapist at one point and even recommended by the church which made things even a bit worse for those harmed by her (and exacerbated some of the harm in some people). I’m much more inclined to side with Skipper as far as life coaches are concerned. Except when they are also licensed therapists they are unregulated and there are not any professional “industry standards” as far as I can tell. I think they are generally to be avoided, and I while I do support professional mental health care I also think people need to be very careful who they choose to provide that kind of care (IOW do your homework and make sure the person you are seeing actually is appropriately licensed and is actually practicing appropriate standards of care). I think a professional therapist (and let me be very clear here that I am referring to licensed psychologists, LCSW, and similarly trained and licensed individuals) who delves into the life coach realm is probably a little outside their parameters – that’s not how real therapy works. To Amy’s point, I also agree that the majority of church leaders have no professional mental health or counseling training and are also generally not good resources.
DarkJedi wrote:
I’m much more inclined to side with Skipper as far as life coaches are concerned. Except when they are also licensed therapists they are unregulated and there are not any professional “industry standards” as far as I can tell. I think they are generally to be avoided, and I while I do support professional mental health care I also think people need to be very careful who they choose to provide that kind of care (IOW do your homework and make sure the person you are seeing actually is appropriately licensed and is actually practicing appropriate standards of care). I think a professional therapist (and let me be very clear here that I am referring to licensed psychologists, MCSW, and similarly trained and licensed individuals) who delves into the life coach realm is probably a little outside their parameters – that’s not how real therapy works. To Amy’s point, I also agree that the majority of church leaders have no professional mental health or counseling training and are also generally not good resources.
I think that doing your homework also includes making sure that the standard of care is actually useful for you and your exact situation:)
One of my mini-regrets in life was that I went into looking for a counselor to help with “Anxiety” when I was more likely dealing with a variety of traumas and transitions and needed standards of care similar to the “complex trauma” umbrella. I found a “trauma-informed” counselor later on that was super helpful. There are a variety of counseling disciplines that I haven’t experienced. I was lucky to find a patient-centric counselor who let me lead sessions, bring information, and sat in some really blunt & honest conversations. The full array of potential counseling services (let alone life coaches) is super daunting.
PART 1: Counselor as “Integrity Specialist”
I wound up in a conversation with our counselor about “family structure integrity [in the sense of the family framework being able to carry the weight of the family and the family culture]” once. We compared our counselor to “Holmes on Homes” – a TV show about a contractor who helps families fix structural issues in their homes. Our counselor was pleased to see her impact on our life as her being invited into our lives to assess the family structure of our household and to clean up some of the trauma and other stuff that was sapping our stamina. This image has always stayed with me.
PART 2: Plumbers
We wound up with plumbing problems last year that initially required snaking the plumbing. When all was said and done, we wound up with an “indoor plumber” who handled replacing some piping going outside, an “outdoor plumber” who wound up digging up the yard to replace the very old clay pipes that were growing roots. We also made the acquaintance of our department of public works group to coordinate some of the work and take over free snaking services provided by the city.
I learned then that it was up to me to “learn the language” to understand that scope of work being contracted for. I also learned that there are professional boundaries that are good to know about.
Moving to get us back to the subject at hand, that I realize I contributed to moving us away, here is where my mind goes to. Related to Roy’s comment that his parents sent him to a therapist because he was masturbating too much, and the therapist felt there was nothing wrong, I am sorry your parents brought you to a therapist. I think too many LDS parents think there might be a mental health problem when someone strays off the covenant path. I think this can be potentially damaging, as a younger person should not be viewed as having a mental health disorder when they simply do not live gospel principles.
I have no idea, but I would think most therapists would not view anything wrong with a person who masturbates reasonably (not like five times a day every day, this could be a sign of a health issue). I think masturbation is a way many men manage sexual desires and tension. The unique challenge in the church is men are not encouraged to use this method and in lieu is the broader concept to control over our bodies.
To this end, my mind keeps going to Gandhi’s “sexual celibacy” experiments. Repeating myself from a past post, after his wife died to prove he could control his body he slept naked with two young women (both, or course, who consented). There are conflicting reports of the end result, but Gandhi claimed he could control his body. Granted, he was also an older man at this point in time.
I go down two paths of thinking. Although I would never conduct such an experiment, there is something in me that thinks this would be the ultimate tests that men could use to prove they can master their biological sexual urges. The other pathway is the one we are counseled in the church, stay aware from temptations, which is clearly a form of self-control also.
I get stuck on this thought that Heavenly Father seemed to create men that seem to have not much control over certain body part that then increases sexual tension. Again, repeating myself from a past post, years after my wife had married, she had to travel for over a month due to a family matter and it was the first time in our marriage we had to be apart for over a week. I was shocked at the level of sexual intensity I experienced after about two weeks. After two weeks it become restless and even affected my dream state. Because she was away for over a month, it re-occurred after about two weeks, a second time and I kept thinking what is wrong with me. I shared this with my wife and then, with per approval, after she returned, I tried to see how long I could go without sex. It seems like I can only last two weeks because the feels become so strong and then affect my dreams. I feel some degree of disappointment in myself when I think I can only control this part of myself for two weeks. I also find it weird that I realized this 20 years post marriage. It has caused me to better understand why some men masturbation in and outside of marriage.
Again, repeating myself from a past post, I think if a man is not looking at pornography and is doing everything he can keep his thoughts pure, but is in a situation where a wife cannot have regular sex (for a good reasons, such as cancer, past trauma, travel etc. and that women should not feel shame nor guilt) that masturbation would be a smaller sin that can be repeated of by the bed side with that person in constant dialogue in prayer. I can see how that can help save a marriage.
My most concise view: What happens consensually fully within a marriage is nobody’s business outside the marriage.
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