Unable to Stay, Unwilling to Go

[Anonymous]

As some of you know, I’m a member but mostly lurk here. I rarely post, and when I do post, it’s usually when I’m at a breaking point. Subconsciously, I think I refrain from being active on here intentionally. For reasons I think most of you would understand, it’s hard for me to open up about my thoughts about my religion and my faith transition. But today I’m going to open up a little more. I hope you can offer me something. I don’t know. Maybe just comfort. As a reminder, I’m female college student in my twenties.

I’m pretty disillusioned with the church now. Maybe that’s an understatement. Last night while deep in thought I had an epiphany about my feelings about the church. I thought to myself, “the answers just don’t work for me anymore.” I loved the church because it provided answers for me. But they aren’t enough anymore. In fact, they’re painful now. I twitch when I hear them. They can’t stand the weight of my doubts, boiling up by by troubling historical information and some current LDS teachings which I feel conflict with what I believe is morally good. I hate typing this. Reducing my faith to “answers” makes it sound so trivial. But these answers were sacred to me. They supported me through pain and sorrow. These “answers” were beautiful. They helped me find comfort in the arms of Jesus Christ. But as I said before, the traditional Mormon “answers” don’t work for me anymore. Almost no orthodox answers work for me anymore. However, that doesn’t mean I find them any less beautiful, which makes things very painful. Obviously, I’m going through grief right now.

Now, to my point:

I don’t feel like I can stay in this church. I’m a young single woman, very ambitious and politically involved. I want to be married and have children but I also want to be loved for my authentic self. And a big part of my personality–a part that used to work so well with the church but no longer does–is I can’t stifle my opinions when I feel something is morally wrong. And there are things about the church I can’t get in line with. I can’t be honest about these things with a Mormon man who wants to take me to the temple…the chances of a relationship with that kind of man being successful are very, very low. Right now, I don’t even want to go to the temple. I don’t want to pay tithing for various reasons. I don’t feel comfortable with the sexism in the temple. I don’t even feel comfortable at church, hence why I haven’t been for months. I’m liberal religiously and politically. Some would say there’s a guy out there for me in the church, but at this point, I feel like the odds of finding him are next to none. Mormon men have expressed interest and I don’t reciprocate interest even when I am because I know I’m not what they want from a partner. I don’t fit their criteria, they just think I do because I come off as very “Mormon” and I don’t want to be rejected. Additionally, I honestly feel good about my own unorthodox beliefs right now. I recognize they will evolve in the future. Maybe I’ll even become an active Mormon again. I don’t know. I’m okay with my beliefs, for the time being. And I would like to step away from the church for awhile, in an environment not so surrounded by Mormons, where I can experiment with my faith and test what I want out of life.

And then there’s my mother. She’s been abused most of her life. She’s been through so much heartache. She’s a devote believer and has dedicated so much of her life to the church. Her faith is beautiful. But she will be absolutely devastated if I don’t return to the fold. She’ll be absolutely devastated if she found out how far I am from “the iron rod” even now. I know she’s holding on to faith that it will all turn around and my doubts aren’t as serious as they are. But I think the reality of my viewpoints are her worst nightmare. I’m very, very close to her. The problem is, I cannot be authentic with her. Why? Because I have very good reason to believe she will kill herself if she finds out the truth about my feelings. I’m not exaggerating this. I may be the final straw for her and suicide is something she’s talked about before on multiple occasions. At the very least she’ll lash out at me in a major way (she already did several months ago she found about my Mormon feminist leanings). I freeze up in panic every time I think about coming clean to her about anything at all. At this point, all she knows is that I have doubts and that I”m not ready for a temple marriage. The other day, while I was visiting at home, she struggled when she found out I believe in human biological evolution…something that I forgot people even deny based on religious grounds because I’ve enjoyed studying it for years. If I’d remembered the controversy, I surely wouldn’t have voluntarily outed myself as an evolution-believer. Finally, I told her many Mormons believed in evolution and she calmed down a bit. But if that’s the preview to how she’s going to react to me having any significant doubts about the church…I’m going to have to be ready to lose my best friend if I want to be authentic. And to be honest, “losing her” might be literal. To make things worse, she keeps pressuring me about dating. She wants me to marry a good Mormon boy and to be honest I think she thinks if I fall in love with a good Priesthood Holder that will fix everything.

Basically, I feel like I’m living a lie and it’s killing me. But I can’t tell her the truth. And honestly, I think the stress of it is preventing me from not only being myself, but also having any kind of spiritual progression. I feel like my mom’s life is on my shoulders. It may in fact be. Whether she finds out now or five years from now…is she going to die because of me? I don’t live at home but for some reason the guilt of her situation follows me here. It’s just so tragic that after everything she’s been through, she’s going to be so hurt by me. I’m more authentic about my religious beliefs with my roommates but almost no others because I feel guilty about disrespecting my mom’s legacy and I’m terrified somehow my true self, (the one who *gasps* sometimes swears) will get back to her (and yes, she was noticeably disappointed and worried when she found out I swore in public…probably because she’s worried it’s a sign that I’ve lost the spirit).

I guess this was just a little ramble. Take it as me opening up. Maybe I’ll post around here more often because right now I don’t know what else I can lose. I’m feeling very defeated at this point. And stuck.

[Anonymous]

-Peace-

[Anonymous]

I’m sorry you’re feeling so overwhelmed. Many of us, including me, have been there and it’s tough. I described it as being in a smooth-walled pit with no apparent way out – and I still think that’s accurate.

I can’t promise you there’s a Mormon man out there for you, but there are Mormon men out there who have doubts as you do and don’t necessarily want to have anything to do with the temple even if they thought themselves worthy. The trick is finding them, and then of course there are the normal relationship intricacies of compatibility and so forth. Given what you’ve told us, it seems best to keep lying to your mom, for her sake, not for yours.

Are there things about the church you do believe? Even if those things aren’t specific to the church but are general Judeo-Christian principles? Focus on those and don’t worry about the stuff you don’t believe.

And by all means, come here and vent and share. We’re always open.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think honesty is a the best way to finding peace. You have given yourself time to see what is just emotional responses or to change your mind, but you seem to keep coming back to the same place on what you feel or believe or want.

Listen to your heart, to your spirit. Don’t try to be what others think you should be…be yourself and accept yourself.

I think there are men out there that think like you do, and may be relieved to find a woman who just wants a happy life without pressure of having to be the perfect priesthood holder and temple goer that some woman want them to be.

So…if you be honest with yourself, and be who you are…then you’ll find peace. Be open to finding and learning more and maybe you’ll change your mind someday. But today…where you are now…it is OK to be just the way you are. God accepts you where you are. He only cares how you move forward and what you do with your life to be a loving wonderful person, even if that doesn’t seem like it is what you are taught at church to conform and obey to being a certain way. Those “certain ways” are general guidelines that have worked for others. But they are not universal things that work for everyone.

Be you. And be at peace that you are fine, just the way you are, and the Lord loves you, just the way you are. The more peace and happiness you can have, the easier it will be to start a healthy relationship with someone else who loves you for who you are…and you can love him…with no pressures to be someone they are not.

Take some breaks and stop doing the things you don’t like, like church every other week, or tithing, or whatever. And when you find you miss them, add them back in. You’re allowed to do that. It is your life. Find peace. God is great enough to help you on your journey, whatever path that is for you.

[Anonymous]

university wrote:

I hate typing this. Reducing my faith to “answers” makes it sound so trivial. But these answers were sacred to me. They supported me through pain and sorrow. These “answers” were beautiful. They helped me find comfort in the arms of Jesus Christ. But as I said before, the traditional Mormon “answers” don’t work for me anymore. Almost no orthodox answers work for me anymore. However, that doesn’t mean I find them any less beautiful, which makes things very painful. Obviously, I’m going through grief right now.

You certainly just described me and probably many of us on this site. Life is in a constant state of flux. Everything evolves, both questions and answers. It can be like fighting a disease that has built up a drug resistance. Either the drugs aren’t working anymore or they have started to lose their effectiveness. Either the nature of the problem has evolved or our body has built up a tolerance to the old drug. The doctor has to work with the patient to come up with other answers.

You’re certainly in a difficult position. My FC came after I married, I didn’t experience the anxiety over dating in the church. My challenge was of a different nature. I agree with DJ, I’m sure there are many men in the church that can empathize with your feelings. Sometimes it really is the vocal minority that can make the whole look worse. I’m not advising one way or the other, I’d only advise you to do what’s true to you.

I wouldn’t tell your mother about your more nuanced beliefs. I’m a convert, my mother isn’t even a member of the church but I still don’t try to explain things to her. I know it’s tough. In some ways a part of my family looks up to me because they know I am serious about religion. Church every Sunday, served a mission, etc. Even doing the bare minimum in the LDS church can appear to be a big deal to a lot of people. Anyway, a few people among that group died right at the height or right after the peak of my FC. I’d probably describe myself as atheist at the time, I didn’t believe in an afterlife at all. I was put in the awkward position of having to reassure people. Their worries were: we’ll never see them again, I’m afraid people lose their identities in heaven, etc. While they weren’t mormon they were christian so I reassured them with their own beliefs, beliefs that I didn’t share at the time. Some will call that lying, heck I’ll call it lying. I was thrust into the role of doctor and I was just doing my best to administer the drugs that I thought would work. Physician is a practice, right?

Edit: Maybe I was being authentic in that moment. Maybe the authentic me is a person that tries to comfort others. I was only reminding them of their faith after all. Ugh, conflicting emotions and thoughts, aka me.

I also share the struggle with being authentic. My solution for that so far has been to put being authentic on the back burner until I discover who I am… but I know that the discovery process will likely last a lifetime. There are days where I reach the end of that rope and just want to be “open” and see where life takes me, and that’s not a bad thing. People here are helping me discover how to be more authentic and that perhaps there are ways to be genuine that satisfy my needs without placing all my cards on the table. I don’t need people to know the whole me, I just need them to know what I feel are the most essential things to knowing me.

You might say that at the heart of the matter I want to be understood and liked for who I am, not for who I appear to be, it’s a human need and it doesn’t have anything to do with other people. It’s all in my messed up head. I’m certain that it’s the fear of people liking who I appear to be and not who I am that governs most of this. Work in progress.

Parting note, the orthodox answers have by and large ceased to cause pain or provoke anger… but it took time for me to get there. I’m still not 100% zen. The main discomfort that I now face might best be described as “here we go again.” It’s a case where I’m anxious about the future and the only options before me seem to be to take that tentative step forward or to stay exactly where I am.

Thanks for opening up and providing me the opportunity to do the same.

[Anonymous]

I can really relate to your comments. I questioned too whether I would be able to relate to any Mormon men, and truth be told, I didn’t relate to many. There was no chance in hell I was going to agree to be some stay-at-home plus-one to a Mormon man, stroking his ego and deferring to his opinions or whatever. Fortunately, that attitude just helped me steer clear of the wrong kind of men.

A few thoughts on your comments:

Quote:

I want to be married and have children but I also want to be loved for my authentic self. And a big part of my personality–a part that used to work so well with the church but no longer does–is I can’t stifle my opinions when I feel something is morally wrong. And there are things about the church I can’t get in line with.

I can only say that I’m a very opinionated person, too, and I just speak my mind. They can’t kick you out for having an opinion. I’m not picking fights, but I don’t sit quietly if people are gay bashing either.

Quote:

I can’t be honest about these things with a Mormon man who wants to take me to the temple…the chances of a relationship with that kind of man being successful are very, very low.

Don’t be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t love the real you. That’s the best advice I can give you. Be yourself and let the chips fall. You’ll find someone who loves you for you, whether he’s Mormon or not.

A few general thoughts.

1 – Don’t underestimate how Mormon you are. It’s really hard to go from being raised in the church to being “not Mormon.” I can’t explain it, but it’s also not comfortable. It’s tough to relate to non-LDS men who’ve been raised completely differently just as it’s tough to relate to LDS men who are conservative or orthodox or sexist or whatever. Neither is a good match. I suspect you will find (as I did and as some others have done) that you are more Mormon, that you have more Mormon baggage than you think you do. It’s not so easy to just drop that and not be Mormon. It’s pretty deeply in us. For examples, read Therese Doucet’s book A Lost Argument or Elna Baker’s book New York Mormon Halloween Singles Dance.

2 – Find someone (LDS or not) who shares your actual values. Too many Mormons think that all Mormons have the same values, but we absolutely don’t. Some Mormons value conformity, fitting in, obedience, hierarchy, approval from others, status quo. If those go against your values, find someone who also doesn’t like that stuff who likes what you like, who values what you value. Political values are frankly more personal than religious ones. I honestly believe that. Do you value open-mindedness? Social justice? Figure out your real values and find someone who agrees on those. If there are causes or activities that really resonate with your values, those are great places to meet like-minded men.

3 – Don’t worry about disappointing your mom. All moms worry about their kids. Just love her.

4 – Beware of declarations. Some will disagree with me on this one, but one thing that I have learned from attending Fast & testimony meetings my whole life is that declarations of belief and of where you sit on things are best deferred and left open. Again, that’s just my opinion. Why go out on a limb and tip your hand. Life is full of change and growth. The less you declare and the more you listen, you’ll have more options in life to stay open minded. Once you state a position, you have to bolster that position and prove that you’re right. That’s not necessary.

I tend to think of being Mormon similar to how I think of being American. I think we can be crass and obese and ill-informed, but I’m not going to move to Canada over it. I’m just going to be the stereotype-busting American by being who I am.

[Anonymous]

Having all the answers suddenly ring hollow is hard at any age, but I imagine especially hard the younger you are. On the up side, you’ve got your whole life ahead of you and this below is advice I wish I’d gotten at your age:

Heber13 wrote:

Take some breaks and stop doing the things you don’t like, like church every other week, or tithing, or whatever. And when you find you miss them, add them back in. You’re allowed to do that. It is your life. Find peace. God is great enough to help you on your journey, whatever path that is for you.

I hope you can finesse things with your mom. I tend to think that just being loving will go a long way.

[Anonymous]

I too can relate to your comments. Wow, I am amazed at how many of them I relate to as well.

As a man I would like to have a loving relationship with a woman who can understand what it is like to have been Mormon and to at least understand this part of me that was so (is so?) important to me. Yet, the people that would understand that for the most part are true believers something that I am not. I agree with you 100% when you talk about things that used to be so sacred and beautiful causing you to twitch and becoming painful not because they are not still beautiful but because they bring feelings of pain along with the beauty (A rose and its thorns comes to mind).

I echo many of your feelings…and I suspect your feelings are quite normal considering the circumstances.

Growing up I was taught to desire Truth over all things…My father and mother found truth through Jesus Christ…and I respect that very much. For whatever reason at this time whenever I hear of Jesus Christ, in any other way outside of a Univeralistic all will be saved regardless message, I begin to twitch and have a sudden desire to leave the room.

Being a christian and following Christ are the bedrocks of my heritage on both sides of my family. But, in my search for truth, I have found the thing that truly matters to me.

Authenticity…

All I really want from people is authenticity…to truly be myself and you truly be yourself…what more could you ask for? That in my heart is the concept of Zion…that if I really love you and you really love me and we relish in our openness together then the world will change. It is a difficult ideal…I am not sure if I am will ever reach it.

You are not alone…not at all…thank you for sharing…it’s nice to know I am not alone either.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for sharing, and for being so open about what you’re going through! It sounds like you’re dealing with a lot of the ‘black or white’ thinking that a lot of us struggle with in the church. It’s important to remember that having doubts about certain doctrines doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re turning your back on everything. And not wanting to marry a TBM dude, doesn’t necessarily mean that you want to marry a drugged-up, tattoed-from-head-to-toe, leather-wearing, butt-scratching, long-haired, Harley-riding, throat-cutting, knuckle-dragging thug. Sometimes we’re taught that things are one way or the other, and there’s no in between. You can find a husband with good moral values, who is respectful, kind, and loving, even if he doesn’t belong to the church. In my opinion (which is often wrong!), it sounds like you could use a move to a place where you’ll be surrounded by more diversity. More diversity in religion, backgrounds, and everything else.

In regard to your concerns with you mother, if you truly believe she could be suicidal, please find some professional help with this. Don’t try to take it on by yourself. My wife spent three months in a behavioral clinic due to suicidal thoughts (and plans), and it made a world of difference. She simply couldn’t find the help she needed from friends and family, no matter how good their intentions were. If she mentions suicide, let her know that you take that serious and go straight to a doctor if you feel you need to. And if she ever does take her life, know that you did not cause your mother’s death, as you were wondering in your post!! If you’re mother takes her life, it is because of a decision that SHE made, and not because of decisions that YOU made. She has just as much free agency as you do. Don’t take that responsibility on yourself.

My wife’s mother used to be very manipulative, and would sometimes threaten to hurt herself if my wife didn’t do or act the way she wanted. You need to be able to start living your own life, and let your mother know that you are your own person now. If you allow yourself to be manipulated now, it will continue after your marriage, and after you have children, and it will affect your marriage and your quality of life. Now is the time to cut the apron strings. That doesn’t mean to cut yourself off from her. You can simply let her know that you respect her opinion and you’re grateful that she cares, but that you’re going to make your own decisions. You don’t have to share every detail about your relationship with God with your mother. She can worry about her own relationship with God. You don’t tell her how to worship. I’ve found the easiest way to do this with my wife and parents, I typically keep things to myself, but if somebody asks me point-blank how I feel about something, if it’s a doctrine that I disagree with I give a very generic answer, like, “I’m still trying to figure out exactly where I stand with that, but I do know that…,” and then I share my personal feeling about something that I DO believe (Christ is my savior, God loves us, etc.). Learn to deflect, and it will save you, and those who care about you, a lot of stress. Parents in the church are made to feel like they are responsible for their children’s eternal salvation, so it’s common for parents to worry if they feel like their children are not on the ‘strait and narrow.’ They feel like failures as parents and worry that they won’t be able to be together with you for eternity. I think that’s a load of hogwash, and that God isn’t that restrictive. All you can do is stress the things that you DO believe in, and help your mother understand that you are now your own person. She raised you well, you appreciate everything she has done (and continues to do) for you, and that now you are working on your OWN testimony.

Just my two cents…

[Anonymous]

Holy Cow, that’s some great advice! 😆

[Anonymous]

I wrote up a long response last night and accidentally deleted it :thumbdown:

Thanks for your comments. I’ll respond as soon as I can.

[Anonymous]

I’m new to this community and have only been experiencing the faith crisis for about 5 months, but I think I have some advice that could be helpful. While I agree with others that you might need to take things slow and one thing at a time with your mother, there is no reason you can’t ask her to stop pushing you to date. Even long before my faith crisis I was giving this advice to roommates. While an enduring relationship is something that we as humans are programed to desire, it doesn’t need to happen right away. It sounds like she needs to be reminded both of this, and that finding someone to love is your business. There are very loving ways to convey this, and you will know the way that is right for you. My parents were ages 29 and 30 when they found each other. They were still able to have 3 kids and are still together to this day. I know of other couples that were quite a bit older than that who would not change the length of time it took to find each other. In a way the fact that you are learning right now the restrictions you will be putting on the type of men you want to date is a good thing. While it limits the playing field, it also weeds out some of the men that would not fit with you and/or be worthy of your love.

I will be joining you soon in this place of uncertainty as I am currently going through a divorce. For the time being I have decided that I don’t want to date again until I know who I am and have an idea of where my life is going. I definitely hear you on this subject. It sounds to me like right now you need the freedom to focus on finding yourself. You can do it, and you will find a way to be who you are.

[Anonymous]

Thanks everyone for your comforting words. I read all of them several times.

DarkJedi wrote:

Are there things about the church you do believe? Even if those things aren’t specific to the church but are general Judeo-Christian principles? Focus on those and don’t worry about the stuff you don’t believe.

Thanks. At this point I’d probably self-identity as a Christian/Mormon influenced Universalist. I believe in being kind (especially to those who don’t treat you well), resisting ignorance, minimizing pride, and seeking wisdom. I believe in deity. I’m not sure what form that deity takes. I’m comfortable with the notion of a Heavenly Father, perhaps because I was raised that way and it feels good, but the God of the Bible, even the New Testament, as well as the God of the Book of Mormon, and the God of the Doctrine and Covenants scares me. It feels like he’s all great and good when you’re on “the right side of the fence” but when you’re hanging out on the fence or even heading the other direction, he’s terrifying. Occasionally I’ll be hit with bouts of terror over the notion that the God the Church actively promotes is actually the “real” God. I feel like that would mean an eternity of misery for me and the thought of which gives me anxiety.

On side note, I love Christ. That’s all I can really handle saying about him right now. Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, and the other LDS prophets are locked away in a chest right now. However, try as I might, they keep getting out and giving me grief, especially Joseph but occasionally Brigham. I started reading Rough Stone Rolling but put it away because I can’t cope with that right now. Sometimes I just wish I could cover my ears and ignore everything about the Church. But that won’t work. I live in Utah for the time being and the Church touches so much, including my family.

I guess, inside I’ve accepted the Universalist identity, but there’s this part of me that is still so connected and tied up with the church. But I don’t know if I can stay in it and keep my sanity, so I keep looking for reasons to stay. I even have hope that I’m simply not seeing the big picture right now and I’ll be “converted” again to the Church, probably not as TBM but believing in the essence of it that I’m supposed to believe in. But more damming information about Joseph, and other aspects of church organization, just makes things worse. And then sometimes I feel like I’m searching for reasons to justify my heartbreak and unbelieving to all the people in my head who will surely judge me as a “fallen” if I don’t assimilate back into the church.

Heber13 wrote:

Listen to your heart, to your spirit. Don’t try to be what others think you should be…be yourself and accept yourself.

Thanks for that. I don’t get told that very often. It’s encouraging to hear.

nibbler wrote:

You might say that at the heart of the matter I want to be understood and liked for who I am, not for who I appear to be, it’s a human need and it doesn’t have anything to do with other people. It’s all in my messed up head. I’m certain that it’s the fear of people liking who I appear to be and not who I am that governs most of this. Work in progress.

You just hit the nail on the head for me. I’ve never articulated it like that but this is what I’m feeling right now.

Additionally, I don’t know if I can stay participating in this church when it demands people who disagree with some aspects of the theology bear their crosses in silence (at least in my experience, can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told “it’s okay to have doubts, but you need to talk to the appropriate people in the appropriate places about it”), so I feel like I have to keep myself censored, not just at church but around other Mormons even in other environments. I can’t be myself. I’ve talked to three bishops about my struggles. One was absolutely great. He even gave me a calling I loved. I think, honestly, a part of me is hanging on because of the encouragement he gave me. He validated me as a person and didn’t make me feel like I was lost in the dark just for having doubts. He told me sincerely that the church needed women like me and he cared. The others haven’t been so good but they’ve been far from awful. They’re just trying to do their best but can’t offer me answers that don’t upset me. These last two bishops haven’t been able to understand my heartbreak with feeling “muzzled” by the Church. How can I be in an organization that silences dissonance and shames those who have concerns about how some doctrine hurts people? I just see so much fallibility in the church and it breaks my heart. But maybe that’s not really it that hurts me the most. Perhaps it’s that you’re supposed to conform to all of this fallibility enthusiastically or risk shame and in some cases, even discipline. I have no interest in being rejected and shamed by the organization that is supposed to spiritually nourish me. At the same time, I love the Church. My Bishops can’t understand how painful it is and don’t understand me when I say I feel like I am all alone in this and can’t talk to people. They tell me, “You can talk to me.” I don’t know where I’m going with this…another rant I suppose. But thanks for your encouragement.

hawkgrrrl wrote:

A few general thoughts.

1 – Don’t underestimate how Mormon you are. It’s really hard to go from being raised in the church to being “not Mormon.” I can’t explain it, but it’s also not comfortable. It’s tough to relate to non-LDS men who’ve been raised completely differently just as it’s tough to relate to LDS men who are conservative or orthodox or sexist or whatever. Neither is a good match. I suspect you will find (as I did and as some others have done) that you are more Mormon, that you have more Mormon baggage than you think you do. It’s not so easy to just drop that and not be Mormon. It’s pretty deeply in us. For examples, read Therese Doucet’s book A Lost Argument or Elna Baker’s book New York Mormon Halloween Singles Dance.

Thanks for all your thoughts, Hawkgrrrl. I think you’re right, I can’t forget how “Mormon” I am. I am very Mormon. It’s a huge part of who I am and I love it. Even if I decide it’s healthier for me to disengage from the church, it will always be a part of me. I also think you’ve touched on one of my fears: I won’t be able to sustain a marriage with someone who’s not a member of the church. I guess I’m just feeling so hopeless about finding an LDS man to marry that finding someone outside of the church has become my glimmer at the end of the tunnel. That’s not to say I’m against marrying an LDS man, but right now, I lack faith that will happen for me. With my tunnel vision, I can’t see it happening. Maybe it will. Maybe I shouldn’t give up hope for that.

Holy Cow wrote:

Thanks for sharing, and for being so open about what you’re going through! It sounds like you’re dealing with a lot of the ‘black or white’ thinking that a lot of us struggle with in the church. It’s important to remember that having doubts about certain doctrines doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re turning your back on everything. And not wanting to marry a TBM dude, doesn’t necessarily mean that you want to marry a drugged-up, tattoed-from-head-to-toe, leather-wearing, butt-scratching, long-haired, Harley-riding, throat-cutting, knuckle-dragging thug. Sometimes we’re taught that things are one way or the other, and there’s no in between.

Thank you for your comments. Maybe I am struggling with black-and-white thinking, but I think a part of the problem is that for so long I’ve been struggling to stay in the grey zone and I’m feeling exhausted. I’ve been trying to stay in the church even when I don’t have the traditional believer’s perspective. It feels like a daily battle. But it’s become difficult for me to go to church, which is why I’m on a break. For me, it’s become a matter of trying to determine reasons to stay in the church because I’m feeling stifled. It’s boiling down to fear of what will happen with my family, should I disengage in the long run, and the slight glimmer of hope that this church is where I’m supposed to be. However, my mother’s wishes aren’t going to keep me in the church if I come to the conclusion that it’s better for my progression and happiness to disengage. At this point, I’m becoming increasingly frustrated but haven’t let go of hope that I can be happy in the church.

But I don’t just feel like I’m having doubts in certain doctrines anymore. I feel like I have significant doubts as a member of an organization that has bare minimum tolerance for dissenting thinking. I feel like the church does a lot of great things but it also does some bad things and I don’t know if I can stay in the organization when my opinions about these bad things will result in me being shamed by my community. I want to feel free to try to make a world a better place without the fear of my community rejecting me, if that makes sense? Additionally, in my experience, it’s difficult to be an unorthodox believer in a very orthodox religion that values conformity. This wouldn’t matter so much if I had a spiritual experience which told me I need to stay.

And just for the record, I’m not going to marry a drugged-up, tattoed-from-head-to-toe, leather wearing, butt-scratching, long-haired-Harley-riding, throat-cutting, knuckle-dragging thug. Not my type. I’m more into the stomach-stabbing thugs

Holy Cow wrote:

In regard to your concerns with you mother, if you truly believe she could be suicidal, please find some professional help with this. Don’t try to take it on by yourself. My wife spent three months in a behavioral clinic due to suicidal thoughts (and plans), and it made a world of difference. She simply couldn’t find the help she needed from friends and family, no matter how good their intentions were. If she mentions suicide, let her know that you take that serious and go straight to a doctor if you feel you need to. And if she ever does take her life, know that you did not cause your mother’s death, as you were wondering in your post!! If you’re mother takes her life, it is because of a decision that SHE made, and not because of decisions that YOU made. She has just as much free agency as you do. Don’t take that responsibility on yourself.

Thank you. I’ve tried to get her to go to counseling for years. She always has the excuse that she can’t afford it. When I try to push it she won’t have it so I’ve given up. I can’t force her. She’s not suicidal now but I don’t know what would happen if I didn’t enthusiastically return to church at some point. I know eventually she will probably instigate some kind of conflict over it so something will come to a head. She’s never tried to take her life (as far as I know) even though she’s talked about it and is a strong woman. She’s put up with so much abuse in her life that it’s probably a miracle she hasn’t broken down more than she has. But I do worry. I think I have to accept that whatever happens is her choice, like you said, but it is still terrifying to me and worries me. I think about it every day.

countrygirl444 wrote:

I’m new to this community and have only been experiencing the faith crisis for about 5 months, but I think I have some advice that could be helpful. While I agree with others that you might need to take things slow and one thing at a time with your mother, there is no reason you can’t ask her to stop pushing you to date.

Thank you. I think if it comes up again I will ask her. I think I can frame it in a way that it won’t hurt her feelings.

I think I should probably say that while yes, I know my mother is worried about me, she’s also really proud of me and loves me a lot. That makes it painful. Every time she says something kind to me, I get a pit in my stomach thinking I’m going to break her heart at some point. I also think it’s made it harder for me to sort out my testimony because I’m internally resenting the church for the potential impact is has on my relationship with my mom.

[Anonymous]

university wrote:

Maybe I am struggling with black-and-white thinking, but I think a part of the problem is that for so long I’ve been struggling to stay in the grey zone and I’m feeling exhausted. I’ve been trying to stay in the church even when I don’t have the traditional believer’s perspective. It feels like a daily battle.

….I do worry. I think I have to accept that whatever happens is her choice, like you said, but it is still terrifying to me and worries me. I think about it every day.

Those are great points. It can be exhausting when you’re trying to figure out where you fit on the spectrum, especially when family relationships play a factor. I think most of us here deal with trying to find a balance between where we want to be, and where we feel like we’re willing to be based on the needs of our families (parents, siblings, spouses, kids). We all have people who have certain expectations of us, and when we make changes in our lives that rock those expectations, we get push-back. People want to keep us in the perfectly framed box that they’ve always kept us in, and when we start to think outside of that box, they want to stuff us back into it. Finding where you fit best, while maintaining your relationships, can be a daunting endeavor. I know there are some on this site who keep a more TBM mask on the outside, while dealing with their doubts and questions on a more personal level. Others go their own way, and allow other people to accept it or not. For me, personally, I’ve given up doctrines that I personally don’t accept like temple attendance and garment, but I’m still comfortable teaching primary (until next year when the lessons will be on the BofM), and paying tithing (I give to multiple charitable organizations and I see tithing as just one of those). Trying to find the balance that works best for you can be a lot of work. Good luck finding the balance that works for you, and I look forward to seeing your future posts. There is a lot of support here, and you’ll probably find that your experiences will give you the opportunity to support others as well.

university wrote:

And just for the record, I’m not going to marry a drugged-up, tattoed-from-head-to-toe, leather wearing, butt-scratching, long-haired-Harley-riding, throat-cutting, knuckle-dragging thug. Not my type. I’m more into the stomach-stabbing thugs

Ha ha!!! Didn’t mean to suggest that you were looking for those things in a guy. Just giving an example of the black/white mentality that is sometimes put out there in church. But, good luck finding that stomach-stabber! 😆

[Anonymous]

I’m trying to to play blitz catch up through a lot of threads, since I’ve been gone all year due to a family near-tragedy, so fair warning, I haven’t read most of the previous replies.

Hey, university. I think we’re a bit a like. I’m fairly liberal, feminist and extremely unorthodox in my LDS beliefs. I was talking about beliefs with one of my many lax LDS friends, and I was surprised to find that she believed in a whole lot more LDS doctrine than I did; interestingly, she’s in a relationship with another super lax LDS member, and she’s privately admitted to me that she probably hangs on to the relationship so tightly because she knows how difficult it is to find an LDS guy who also accepts her social drinking and other very non-Mormon behaviors.

I’m also at the age where I’m getting to be an “old maid” according to Utah Mormon culture, and my mother especially has been pushing me for years and years to get a date, since I rarely do so and have never had a boyfriend despite having many great friends of both genders. And I’m also now at the point in my life post-FC and into my faith transition stage where I’ve thought a lot about what sort of guys I would be willing to date and potentially marry. I do want a family one day, but I want one where religion and science and discussion are open, and where both the kids and my SO can learn from one another and change as needed and grow. I don’t feel like I can get that with a TBM guy, and it seems like around here in Northern Utah, everyone is either TBM or those who have fallen away and want nothing to do with the church at all. Before my FC, I don’t think I would have seriously considered marrying anyone who couldn’t come into the temple with me. Nowadays in my faith transition, I would like to find someone who could share in the symbolism of an eternal temple marriage, but I also strongly value someone who shares the same outlooks on life and spirituality as me with the knowledge and acceptance that people change over time.

So, no advice here. Just some emphasizing and a lot of long-windedness from someone else to potentially take your mind off things. It really does seem hopeless in finding someone who can reconcile our desire to StayLDS along with our need to be ourselves. I struggled a lot to come to terms with the fact that a lot of my fears of not finding a guy who could come to the temple with me are based in disappointing my parents; the last thing in the world I want to do is break their hearts. But besides my family and the occasional brush with TBMs at church, I’m surrounded by very lax and moderate people who are accepting of whatever beliefs I have and don’t have. That as well as this forum have helped me a lot during my faith transition. It’s given me time to rest and think, so I don’t feel exhausted. In fact, I’m leaving on a mission for the church in a few months. And in that case, we’re in very different situations, it seems.

A lot of my peace came from recognizing that there is some force in my life that has consistently affected my family and me in highly coincidental ways. They’re things we can’t explain and things we are so very, very grateful for. My parents recognize this as coming from their obedience to Mormon religious principles, and their faith in the church grows all the more stronger. And I’m OK with that. It’s very clear that the LDS religion is exactly what my parents need in their lives; I also think that for right now, it’s also what I need in my life. And maybe that will change. And maybe that will stay the same.

Maybe it will help a little to mention that one big reason I’m comfortable staying LDS and going on a mission is because I want the culture to change to accept more viewpoints like those expressed on the site. I am in a very blessed position to help it change, even just a little nudge, and I’m going to use that position as best I can. It takes one person doing one thing at a time. Maybe one day people like you and I will feel comfortable staying LDS.

[Author]

Posts