Uncomfortable (but too late) about my son’s baptism

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

MacKay, I think baptism’s a good thing, it’s the later stuff I have problems with.

Thanks SamBee. It does at least give him the chance to make a promise and see it as a part of growing up and moving to the next stage of life.

[Anonymous]

mackay11 wrote:

We mock other denominations for their infant baptisms – but do we really do anything different?

I was surprised recently to learn that Catholics have a similar age of accountability doctrine, although it’s 7 for them. My son is turning 8 later this year too, but for him he is actually worried about getting baptized. He thought that baptism will make him accountable for his sins, and that if he didn’t get baptized he wouldn’t have to be accountable. I’ve tried to tell him that turning 8 is what does that, and the baptism (or especially the Gift of the Holy Ghost) is suppose to help. But I have taught 9 year olds in primary before, and they don’t usually seem to know what they have covenanted to do. It worries me a little because I don’t want to force my son to get baptized if he’s still worried about it, but there will be pressure to do it. I know the teaching is that age 8 is old enough, but I sort of wish it was older and I really knew he understood what it meant.

[Anonymous]

This answer may seem a little off topic or strange. I hope I can write it to make sense.

Last night I was thinking about Mackay’s dilemma and I remembered a Micheal J. Fox article I read. In the article Michael J. Fox mentioned that he was not religious but through his illness had come to embrace religious faiths and practices. His wife is Jewish, and though they don’t practice it fully they do keep some connection. Fox was surprised one day when his son wanted to have bah mitzvah. The weeks of preparation, synagogue attendance, etc happened then finally the big day. While Fox was watching the proceedings and sitting in the synagogue looking at everyone around him he had a profound appreciation and yearning. He loved the demarcation of growth or life passage this event represented. He loved that his son wanted to be tied to something greater than himself. He wished he had experienced something similar in his life.

I thought of your son Mackay when I remembered that. This is a boy looking for a greater light or leader in his life. I wish you both much joy and peace and good memory on his baptism day.

[Anonymous]

mackay11 wrote:

I think he wants to because he feels it’s the right thing to do. He’s talked about following Jesus’s example but also said things like “get forgiveness for my sins” which is a little disturbing.

mackay11, LDS doctrine of baptism is fine, and on-point, but gets bogged down in the “forgiveness of sins” dogma. It’s out-of-focus. But dogma is not doctrine. In LDS dogma, the person wanting to be baptized comes with a litany of sins… they must repent first, and show that they are prepared to live without those sins, etc, etc, etc. Baptism, in this sense is said to offer a fresh start by washing us clean of our past failures… it’s not necessarily wrong or bad, but like I said, I think it misses the mark.

A few scriptures that might help you and your son frame it in a more acceptable way…

Romans 6:1-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:1-14&version=NRSV). NRSV version here for clarity. Paul, in his typical view, thought of the lives of the faithful as being spiritually led, and baptism was symbolic of putting away the type of life that people live before they come to Christ, and the life after as a “new life”, “under grace”, and no longer a slave to the shortcomings, failures, and weaknesses of mankind in general. He put it in terms, not as cleansing from sin, but in freeing from weakness. That in our new lives, we would be “dead to sin and alive to God” Paul’s interest and teaching was not about what is and isn’t sin or the forgiveness of sin, but rather the type of life we would live if we joined with the power of Christ’s atonement. Baptism, for Paul, wasn’t about cleansing past “sins”, but about beginning to live a spiritual life. “It is no longer I who live,” Paul said in Galatians, “but Christ who lives in me.” Pretty cool stuff, IMO.

Mosiah 18:8-10 (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/18.8-10?lang=eng#8). This is a great exposition of LDS doctrine of baptism… it’s a joining into the community, and a commitment to it, and to God. This is actually completely in-line with Paul, just more developed. Note that the words “forgiveness” or “sin” or “cleanse” do not appear in this section at all. Like Paul’s teachings, this passage is all about opportunity and commitment to living a God-centered life.

In the NT Gospels, Jesus is portrayed as trying to establish a community of people into a “Kingdom of God” here on earth. While Jesus didn’t say ‘baptism’, it lines up well in the famous passage about taking on his yoke, and in so doing, finding spiritual peace, Matthew 11-28-30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+11%3A28-30&version=KJV)

[Anonymous]

That is a wonderful example, mom3. Thanks for sharing it.

[Anonymous]

Mom3 and On Own Now. Thanks for lifting me up. The baptism is this morning. I will have this song, being sung at his Baptism, on repeat in my head:

I’m trying to be like Jesus,

I’m following in His ways.

I’m trying to love as He did

In all that I do and say.

At times I am tempted

To make a wrong choice,

But I try to listen

As the still small voice whispers:

“Love one another as Jesus loves you.

Try to show kindness in all that you do.

Be gentle and loving in deed and in thought,

For these are the things Jesus taught.”

I’m trying to love my neighbor.

I’m learning to serve my friends.

I watch for that day of gladness

When Jesus will come again.

I try to remember the lessons he taught,

And the holy spirit enters into my thoughts, saying:

“Love one another as Jesus loves you.

Try to show kindness in all that you do.

Be gentle and loving in deed and in thought,

For these are the things Jesus taught.”

[Anonymous]

mackay11,

It’s a beautiful song; full of promise and hope. It’s a good reminder that the gospel, religion, spirituality, are at their best when brought back to the core of being good people.

I wish you and your family a wonderful day. Whatever you decide to do in the future, I’m sure that today will be a very good day to be the dad of such a fine son.

[Anonymous]

mackay11 wrote:

SamBee wrote:

MacKay, I think baptism’s a good thing, it’s the later stuff I have problems with.

Thanks SamBee. It does at least give him the chance to make a promise and see it as a part of growing up and moving to the next stage of life.

It’s also a special intimate thing between you and your son, no matter whatever else guff the church comes out with. No one can take that from you. Make him promise to try and live a good life and to heck with mission and temple pressure etc. We need more good people in this world, and you seem like a decent role model.

Enjoy the moment.

[Anonymous]

Quick note all. Many, many thanks for your support during my ‘wobble.’ It was a wonderful experience. I’ll write up my experience and tag it on.

[Anonymous]

mackay,

I feel like you and I are in very similar situations. I am desperately trying to find ways to stay, but it is becoming more difficult with each testimony meeting, and/or Sunday school lesson. I keep hoping I’ll hear something that will uplift me, but the orthodoxy and “one true church” mindset from all the other ward members is starting to take its toll on me. I want to hold on for as long as I can, and I would like to baptize my youngest next summer, but after that, I just don’t know.

My wife (with whom I shared my faith crisis two months ago) is now completely disaffected, and has decided to go inactive. I completely support her decision, because for her, it is the healthier decision. We’re also to the point that we have to explain to our kids that Mom doesn’t go to church, Dad does, and we’re both still good people. The lessons they’ll learn in primary won’t accommodate this philosophy, which further complicates things. I have to take it one week at a time, I guess.

Thanks for this post. It has definitely been helpful to me.

[Anonymous]

Submar wrote:

mackay,

I feel like you and I are in very similar situations. I am desperately trying to find ways to stay, but it is becoming more difficult with each testimony meeting, and/or Sunday school lesson. I keep hoping I’ll hear something that will uplift me, but the orthodoxy and “one true church” mindset from all the other ward members is starting to take its toll on me. I want to hold on for as long as I can, and I would like to baptize my youngest next summer, but after that, I just don’t know.

My wife (with whom I shared my faith crisis two months ago) is now completely disaffected, and has decided to go inactive. I completely support her decision, because for her, it is the healthier decision. We’re also to the point that we have to explain to our kids that Mom doesn’t go to church, Dad does, and we’re both still good people. The lessons they’ll learn in primary won’t accommodate this philosophy, which further complicates things. I have to take it one week at a time, I guess.

Thanks for this post. It has definitely been helpful to me.

Hi Submar, thanks for your post. Sometimes strength in numbers is a good thing All I can say is… I know how you feel.

DW and I were glad we had the baptism yesterday.

I’m also glad I’ve recently been helping in primary. I’ve been able to see that even at a young age (esp the 7-11yo kids) they are asking questions.

Having a non-orthodox family does not leave my kids simply confused and conflicted. It helps them listen to the absolutes and already see nuances. My kids already know their mum is a good person, so have already reshaped some of the teachings independently. Coffee, for example, is not ‘something bad people drink’ (not taught that way, but sometimes naively understood that way), but is something not very good for is drunk to excess and part of the Mormon health code to respect our bodies. Mum drinks it, she’s not a ‘bad person.’

[Anonymous]

This is a wonderful topic thread as i know this is a concern for many parents that are attempting to raise children in the church with more choice and authenticity of true free agency-instead of “here are all the expected milestones that one is to meet in this community, and if you don’t you will most likely be shamed by community and perhaps parents by a lesser degree”- What choice is there really (depending where you live) for those parents even marginally involved in LDS faith if they want their children to remain playing with most of the other kids in the neighborhood? Cultural suicide for their kids is not on most parents “to do list” for the year I would bet. Well anyway, these stories are very uplifting for those in this situation and how many have proceeded in light of concerns ….and ultimately had a good experience with it! I cant express how comforting these words are for others.

So here is my question. Did any of those who posted here face the “Split Decision” of father baptizing/ however not confirming membership and Holy Spirit ? I understand that is where church authorities have really drawn the line for fathers if struggling with testimony and/or attaining temple recommend. If Bishop or Grandfather etc. stepped in for ordination blessing how did that go? Were there extra questions from son or daughter that were difficult, and as a result feelings of regret from father? Or does the main event of Baptism (pool of water and mirrors and white clothes) excitement just supersede the ordination to the extent that not much was made of it? Anyone who has had experience with the split decision (pos or neg) please post thoughts for others that might be facing this.

-Thank you in advance

[Anonymous]

Shades of Grey wrote:

So here is my question. Did any of those who posted here face the “Split Decision” of father baptizing/ however not confirming membership and Holy Spirit ? I understand that is where church authorities have really drawn the line for fathers if struggling with testimony and/or attaining temple recommend. If Bishop or Grandfather etc. stepped in for ordination blessing how did that go? Were there extra questions from son or daughter that were difficult, and as a result feelings of regret from father? Or does the main event of Baptism (pool of water and mirrors and white clothes) excitement just supersede the ordination to the extent that not much was made of it? Anyone who has had experience with the split decision (pos or neg) please post thoughts for others that might be facing this.

-Thank you in advance

I anticipate a split decision. I plan to do the baptism of my daughter in about the next 6 months but I am uncertain about the ordination. I have always felt that I would baptize my own children like my father did for me. I don’t place as great of emotional importance on the confirmation. The next thing that is important to me will be conferring the priesthood to my son. I want my son to have my name and his grandfather’s name on his priesthood line of authority.

[Anonymous]

Shades of Grey, my situation with my youngest daughter wasn’t a “split-decision” in the sense you describe, but my father-in-law confirmed her after I baptized her.

Frankly, that combination is common enough that I doubt anyone would question why it was being done and is an excellent option for anyone who might not be able to do the confirmation.

[Anonymous]

We did the “split.” My husband performed the baptism and his father performed the confirmation. No one said anything. (Of course, my husband hasn’t exactly hidden his disaffection. So I think they were all more surprised that he performed the baptism, than that he didn’t do the confirmation.) 😮)

That said, I agree with Ray that it’s very common to have them done by two separate people. I suspect even “flying under the radar,” it wouldn’t be a big deal.

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