Unconditional Love of God in a performance-based religion

[Anonymous]

mikegriffith1 wrote:

I think part of this is semantics. But, I can logically understand that a person’s actions can affect how much they are loved. Certainly any parent knows that some children are move lovable than others.

As for our end of the bargain, the scriptures seem pretty clear:

“If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15).

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:4).

“They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good” (Titus 1:16).

“No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him” (1 John 3:6).

“If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth” (1 John 1:6).

“And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him” (Hebrews 5:9).

“God, who will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath” (Romans 2:6-.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).

And we all know you can prove almost anything you like using scripture. I don’t spout scripture at others, especially here, but there are also many scriptures that say all we have to do is believe.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

mikegriffith1 wrote:

I think part of this is semantics. But, I can logically understand that a person’s actions can affect how much they are loved. Certainly any parent knows that some children are move lovable than others.

As for our end of the bargain, the scriptures seem pretty clear:

“If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15).

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:4).

“They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good” (Titus 1:16).

“No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him” (1 John 3:6).

“If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth” (1 John 1:6).

“And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him” (Hebrews 5:9).

“God, who will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath” (Romans 2:6-.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).

And we all know you can prove almost anything you like using scripture. I don’t spout scripture at others, especially here, but there are also many scriptures that say all we have to do is believe.

Actually, there are only a handful of scriptures that say all we have to do is believe. Furthermore, if you read ancient Christian statements on what it meant to “believe,” you will find that they did not mean that the simple act of accepting something as true was all that belief entailed. They meant it in the sense that a coach would tell a player “you gotta want it.” Now, of course, the coach doesn’t mean the player will improve if he merely “wants” to be a good player. No, he’s saying that being a better player requires sustained effort and action. This is the same sense that the ancient Christians understood the word “believe” as it related to salvation.

[Anonymous]

I will not engage you. It is not my purpose in life to try to convert anyone else to my point of view, nor do I believe that doing so is the purpose of this forum.

[Anonymous]

Joseph said that there were so many ways to read the Bible that it was impossible to reach a conclusion based solely on an appeal to it, so he had to approach God personally and find his own individual understanding.

I like that standard as part of the foundation of our religion.

[Anonymous]

mikegriffith1 wrote:

I think part of this is semantics. But, I can logically understand that a person’s actions can affect how much they are loved. Certainly any parent knows that some children are move lovable than others.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for contributing. I can’t have this conversation with my EQ because having a different perspective can be seen as laziness, disloyalty, or apostasy. But here we can talk plainly.

I am a proponent of God’s overwhelming love.

I agree that an individual’s actions make them easier to love. Some are sugar and spice and everything nice while others are surly and abrasive. But I also consider that we are God’s children and that He knows us (our pains, personalities, and hang-ups) better than we know ourselves. I might compare this to a parent of a child with a behavioral disability. The child will act out but the parent realizes that the child is working from certain limitations and makes allowances for that. I believe that most parents love these children. How much more so our Heavenly Father with His “unfailing love?”

I am not particularly versed in many religions but I imagine that the concept of a deity that must be appeased with sacrifice and offering is rather common. I find it compelling that in Christianity we have a deity that loved us so much He gave his own life to save us rather than to see us lost. “We love because He first loved us.” For me, it is a powerful concept.

Finally – I do believe that God wants us to be wise and make good choices as far as we are able. I believe that He wants us to learn and grow and progress. I believe that He would like us to care for one another. I believe that He would have us forgive one another even as He forgives us. I believe that most Christian churches would agree on this point.

I believe that this desire for us to make good choices is expressed in the scriptures that you referenced but it is also mixed in with name calling (detestable, liar) and threats (Indignation and wrath). I believe that even in the scriptures holy men express inspiration and revelation with their own words and understandings and experiences. I see the name calling and threats as an example of that.

I may be wrong about that. Maybe God intended the name calling and threats for reasons that I won’t begin to speculate about. But I believe that God will explain it all to me when the time is right. Now I see through a glass darkly but then I will see clearly. I believe that in that day, love will prevail … and understanding and rejoicing will follow.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

mikegriffith1 wrote:

I think part of this is semantics. But, I can logically understand that a person’s actions can affect how much they are loved. Certainly any parent knows that some children are move lovable than others.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for contributing. I can’t have this conversation with my EQ because having a different perspective can be seen as laziness, disloyalty, or apostasy. But here we can talk plainly.

I am a proponent of God’s overwhelming love.

I agree that an individual’s actions make them easier to love. Some are sugar and spice and everything nice while others are surly and abrasive. But I also consider that we are God’s children and that He knows us (our pains, personalities, and hang-ups) better than we know ourselves. I might compare this to a parent of a child with a behavioral disability. The child will act out but the parent realizes that the child is working from certain limitations and makes allowances for that. I believe that most parents love these children. How much more so our Heavenly Father with His “unfailing love?”

I am not particularly versed in many religions but I imagine that the concept of a deity that must be appeased with sacrifice and offering is rather common. I find it compelling that in Christianity we have a deity that loved us so much He gave his own life to save us rather than to see us lost. “We love because He first loved us.” For me, it is a powerful concept.

Finally – I do believe that God wants us to be wise and make good choices as far as we are able. I believe that He wants us to learn and grow and progress. I believe that He would like us to care for one another. I believe that He would have us forgive one another even as He forgives us. I believe that most Christian churches would agree on this point.

I believe that this desire for us to make good choices is expressed in the scriptures that you referenced but it is also mixed in with name calling (detestable, liar) and threats (Indignation and wrath). I believe that even in the scriptures holy men express inspiration and revelation with their own words and understandings and experiences. I see the name calling and threats as an example of that.

I may be wrong about that. Maybe God intended the name calling and threats for reasons that I won’t begin to speculate about. But I believe that God will explain it all to me when the time is right. Now I see through a glass darkly but then I will see clearly. I believe that in that day, love will prevail … and understanding and rejoicing will follow.

Great post, Roy, thanks for sharing. I believe very much as you do in this respect. Relative to the section I highlighted, “It is not that simple” immediately popped into my head.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I think part of this is semantics. But, I can logically understand that a person’s actions can affect how much they are loved. Certainly any parent knows that some children are move lovable than others.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for contributing. I can’t have this conversation with my EQ because having a different perspective can be seen as laziness, disloyalty, or apostasy. But here we can talk plainly.

I am a proponent of God’s overwhelming love.

I agree that an individual’s actions make them easier to love. Some are sugar and spice and everything nice while others are surly and abrasive. But I also consider that we are God’s children and that He knows us (our pains, personalities, and hang-ups) better than we know ourselves. I might compare this to a parent of a child with a behavioral disability. The child will act out but the parent realizes that the child is working from certain limitations and makes allowances for that. I believe that most parents love these children. How much more so our Heavenly Father with His “unfailing love?”

I am not particularly versed in many religions but I imagine that the concept of a deity that must be appeased with sacrifice and offering is rather common. I find it compelling that in Christianity we have a deity that loved us so much He gave his own life to save us rather than to see us lost. “We love because He first loved us.” For me, it is a powerful concept.

Finally – I do believe that God wants us to be wise and make good choices as far as we are able. I believe that He wants us to learn and grow and progress. I believe that He would like us to care for one another. I believe that He would have us forgive one another even as He forgives us. I believe that most Christian churches would agree on this point.

I believe that this desire for us to make good choices is expressed in the scriptures that you referenced but it is also mixed in with name calling (detestable, liar) and threats (Indignation and wrath). I believe that even in the scriptures holy men express inspiration and revelation with their own words and understandings and experiences. I see the name calling and threats as an example of that.

I may be wrong about that. Maybe God intended the name calling and threats for reasons that I won’t begin to speculate about. But I believe that God will explain it all to me when the time is right. Now I see through a glass darkly but then I will see clearly. I believe that in that day, love will prevail … and understanding and rejoicing will follow.[/quote]

Great post, Roy, thanks for sharing. I believe very much as you do in this respect. Relative to the section I highlighted, “It is not that simple” immediately popped into my head.[/quote]

More specifically, like a parent to child, the parent teaches there kid what they belief to be right and supports the child in their own autonomy. Doesn’t try to impose on them their beliefs. Just teach what they believe to be right. And love the child as they themselves are not perfect, while realizing each child has particular needs. And tries to cater to that as best as possible instead of shut-gun parenting standards.

That’s who I look at god and his children as well. No one on earth has the knowledge or authority to to declare what is right for everyone. Humans just don’t work that way biologically and a wise parent knows it. God knows it.

Allowing the child to explore and find there way as they grow up assist ending them without I referring with their choice (autonomy) as they grow up and become self-determined.

Sometimes the mistakes hurt and you cringe, but nothing is more for filling then to watch the child grow into his own self determination of helping others and spreading love. As they figure out what they uniquely have to offer others and contribute at their own way and pace. It is t quite for filling to have it come out because you mini pulsates the experience and wondered if they were doing so because they were condition or because they actually wanted to.

Love is ever hopeful. Even if it doesn’t match the reality. I can imagine the same of Heavenly Father.

After all, he did just drop down his children on earth with no way to have real interaction with him. Insisting instead in a mediator who insist on knowing what the biological wants and how to get back to him by doing everything that’s outlined and blueprinted for the masses and resolved with the differences of his children ala… Deus ex machina.

I would expect that patent to be very very understanding of the circumstances he/she created in doing that.

Aka, compassionate and loving of the situation they, not their children created.

[Anonymous]

Speaking of faith and works, we have this fascinating statement by none other than Augustine of Hippo:

Quote:

We can see, then, why St. Peter in his second epistle urges the faithful to live good and holy lives. . . . He was aware of the fact that certain unrighteous men had interpreted certain rather obscure passages of St. Paul to mean that they did not have to lead a good life, since they were assured of salvation as long as they had the faith. He warns them that, although there are certain passages in the epistles of St. Paul which are hard to understand—which passages some have misinterpreted, as they have other passages of Sacred Scripture, but to their own ruin—nevertheless, St. Paul has the same mind on the question of eternal salvation as have all the other apostles, namely, that eternal salvation will not be given except to those who lead a good life. (De Fide et Operibus, 14.21, in Gregory Lombardo, translator, St. Augustine on Faith and Works,Westminster: The Newman Press, 1988, p. 29)

He also said this:

Quote:

Let us now consider the question of faith. In the first place, we feel that we should advise the faithful that they would endanger the salvation of their souls if they acted on the false assurance that faith alone is sufficient for salvation or that they need not perform good works in order to be saved. (Ibid., p. 28)

You can fill dozens of pages with quotes from the early Christian fathers expressing the necessity of performing good works for salvation.

[Anonymous]

I don’t have a problem with what Dallin H. Oaks wrote. He is simply saying that love doesn’t exclude standards, and it doesn’t dole out approval when there is unacceptable behavior. This sentence captures it for me:

Quote:

Every parent knows that you can love a child totally and completely while still being creatively angry and disappointed at that child’s self-defeating behavior.

Also, if anything, he wins me over a bit when talks about how straying from the gospel can cause unhappiness in families, but families should love each other nonetheless. This supports that notion that when one TR-holder decides to no longer renew a TR, or to otherwise lose heart in the gospel, faithful family members should still love the family member. this implies loyalty to the relationship, although DHO didn’t come right out and say that (he couldn’t).

Quote:

…. when family members are not united in striving to keep the commandments of God, there will be divisions. We do all that we can to avoid impairing loving relationships, but sometimes it happens after all we can do.

In the midst of such stress, we must endure the reality that the straying of our loved ones will detract from our happiness, but it should not detract from our love for one another or our patient efforts to be united in understanding God’s love and God’s laws.

Where this talk is likely to disturb StayLDSers is our perceived ostracization and lack of love from local members when we don’t “tow the line” or have a faith crisis, or disagree with local leadership on matters of style. In my experience, people tend to write you off. The organization as a whole tends to like you when you are serving as they want, and to ignore you when you fall off the service wagon.

Case in point — my wife invited some mothers to our home for a social last week. One member of our ward, who I generally like and respect, saw me for the first time in 1.5 years since we attend a different Ward — even though our records are still in the ward in which we live. We had to get out for own spirituality.

All of this person’s questions were aimed at figuring out my employment situation to see if it was still a valid “excuse” for not attending our home Ward (at one time, it was, along with the spirituality problem).

After she got the information about my employment situation, she lost interest in the conversation totally. I stopped asking her questions and engaging her in conversation as it was clearly a dead-end. She had consumed the information about our employment situation “on her lusts” and was no longer interested in myself as an individual — even though I was interested in continuing our conversation on other personable topics about her own life.

That to me, is the kind of withdrawal of kindness, love, charity or interest we see a lot in the church. When you are serving on the church’s terms, everyone likes you, and when you aren’t you sort of become a non-entity to the majority of people.

[Anonymous]

mikegriffith1 wrote:

You can fill dozens of pages with quotes from the early Christian fathers expressing the necessity of performing good works for salvation.

I am glad that a works based model works for them and helped them to make positive contributions. It worked for me for many years. For me and my experience now – I need an understanding and compassionate God… a father rather than an administrator. (Remember that my stillborn daughter doesn’t have any good works or ordinances to hold to. I must have hope in the power of love and love alone that it will be stronger than the cords of death. I admit that my circumstances are unique and everybody must follow their understanding of God according to the dictates of their conscience. I hope for understanding but I seek no followers)

Elder Oaks wrote:

Every parent knows that you can love a child totally and completely while still being creatively angry and disappointed at that child’s self-defeating behavior.

This strikes me as “love the sinner but hate the sin” or “We love you but cannot accept your actions” And what does he mean by “Every parent knows.” As a parent, I don’t know that I would agree with how he has characterized my parental experience.

TSM said that to have charity (pure love of Christ) is to accept someone as they are. There seems to be a disconnect between this type of love that includes acceptance and types of love that apparently do not. This love that includes acceptance seeks out the good in a person and intentionally emphasizes that over the failings.

Love without acceptance for me doesn’t feel like love at all.

Having a Heavenly Parent say “I love you totally and completely but I am also eternally angry and disappointed in your self-defeating behavior” does not sound very loving to me.

Could this be from the same God that condescended (as described in the BOM) to suffer and die precisely so that He could forgive us and blot out the memory of our “self-defeating behavior”?

[Anonymous]

I recently touched on this in a different thread so I’ll try to be brief in the repetition.

I see both a works based approach and a mercy based approach as equally valid… otherwise the debate would have ended a long time ago because there would have been a clear winner by now. That said I currently find myself in the mercy camp, which my comments will reflect.

Some see the performance based model as the clear winner because from their perspective you don’t get something for nothing, is based on justice. Why should John Doe receive the same reward when they have not put in the effort? There’s also the supposition that there would be no incentive to do anything in the absence of a performance based model. I think that’s probably the largest concern and I see it as completely valid.

I think one danger in the performance based approach lies in judging effort. There’s no way of knowing what a person has to work with. Silly example time: two people are tasked with constructing a bridge but one isn’t making any progress. We might jump to the conclusion that the person not making any progress isn’t putting in as much effort as the person that is successfully constructing a bridge. What we might not realize is that the person that is successfully constructing a bridge has an impressive budget and team of workers on his side and the person that isn’t making any progress at all only has a few logs and a paperclip (but isn’t Macgyver ). The unsuccessful bridge maker might be giving 100% but due to circumstances fails to produce results… which brings me to why I eventually had to side with mercy.

For certain personality types (mine) the demands of a performance based religion could never be satisfied. I always judge my efforts to be lacking, I always see myself as less than perfect. Those feelings weighed me down like a yoke that became too heavy to bear. The only way forward was to seek for mercy, to make that yoke light and easier to bear.

Side note: perhaps that’s why the bible appears to contain contradictory statements, to speak to different personality types or people in different circumstances.

Side note 2: are we in some ways conflating lack of participation in church programs with sin? Again I’d say that people are unique and a church program might be an impressive budget and a team of workers for one person but be a few logs and a paperclip for others.

[Anonymous]

Just because God loves you unconditionally does not mean he will or should reward you unconditionally.

If a parent loved his two children the same but one of those children frequently disobeyed him, that parent would not give both children the same reward, for that would be unfair.

There is no conflict between God’s unconditional love for us and his requiring us to do certain things to return to live with him. No conflict whatsoever.

[Anonymous]

mikegriffith1 wrote:

Just because God loves you unconditionally does not mean he will or should reward you unconditionally.

If a parent loved his two children the same but one of those children frequently disobeyed him, that parent would not give both children the same reward, for that would be unfair.

Mike, I don’t think we’re going to come to a full agreement on this and that is ok.

I agree with your assessment that there are natural consequences to our behaviors – even eternal consequences.

I see no problem with certain individuals “progressing” more than others in the hereafter. But it is very important for me individually that my relationship with my Heavenly Father be a personal one. This would mean that He does not compare me to others. He looks at my heart with love and cherishes every baby step I may make towards becoming a better person. He accepts where I am today and helps me grow into where I will be tomorrow.

I am the prodigal son returning to throw myself at my father’s mercy – I am not returning to demand that I receive an equal share of my brother’s inheritance.

For me, my Father’s love and acceptance allows me to work on my flaws without fear of rejection. I feel that my Father will always be on my team and that he will always be there to help me take the next step when I am ready. According to my view, He will never abandon me.

mikegriffith1 wrote:

There is no conflict between God’s unconditional love for us and his requiring us to do certain things to return to live with him. No conflict whatsoever.

I suppose this is really where we diverge. I’m ok with God distributing thrones and principalities according to who might be the best administrators. I’m not ok with God using a similar assessment to determine who should “return” to Him and to “Live with Him.” To me that seems like part of the “reward” is to remain in the family. I don’t feel that one’s family membership should ever be in jeopardy.

Do you understand where I draw the distinction?

Are you saying that if my actions are bad enough that Heavenly Father might eventually abandon/disown me?

This is where I see a conflict. This is where Pres. Uchtdorf might say, “It is not that simple.”

[Anonymous]

I think God is long-suffering and has “all eternity” to make us what he wants us to become.

That’s my own baseline.

[Anonymous]

Amen, Old-Timer. I want to belong to The Church of Old-Timer of Latter-Day Fallen Saints.

I truly think ….. “Obedience with exactness” “Be ye therefore perfect..” and it’s all true or it’s a fraud” statements and themes that are very pervasive throughout our culture and lesson manuals are at the root of most of our posts in general. We have become a bunch of Pharasees and Saducees fighting about how many steps to take on Sunday to assuage our guilt when Christ came not only to FULFILL the law but to knock down the rules and laws of the Jewish faith and CULTURE. Love, tolerance, meekness, kindness, brotherly love, forgiveness, charity….etc. is what Christ brought to eliminate the Law of Moses, Judaic rituals and laws and focus on silly rules that pushes many from a relationship with God… I truly feel like TBM blog sites are exactly what Pharasees blog sites would be like if they had them back then. Worried about garment length, what color shirt to pass the sacrament with, who is worthy enough to take the sacrament, percentage of home teaching….I could go on forever.

I agree. We need The Diet Church of JC of LDS. Christ-centered….not so policy and regulation based…performance based. Probably unrealistic as a body but it is how I am going to approach my faith within the current structure and if that keeps me from callings…so be it.

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