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The thread on the Honor Code office and the plight of people who come forward in rape situations showed me just how little I know about the political/power relationships at BYU and the risks attendance poses to freshman. Or to be unsexist, freshpeople. First, let me say I’m glad one of my children are attending BYU. It has been a dream of hers for as long as I can remember,and of all the universities on the planet, I think it sounds like a place where she can preserve her observance of good habits. TBM Mormonism brings her a lot of peace and appears to guide her in making pretty good decisions, boosting her self-esteem (so far) and helping her find sources of spirituality. This is not a “beat up BYU thread” on my part.
On the other hand, I wasn’t aware the Honor Code office existed, and the power it seems to wield — and apparently, potentially unjustly at times. I felt like I was reading an outrageous case by someone wrongly prosecuted by a government bureau with unlimited power when I read how the Honor Code office handled some of the cases in another thread.. It sounds like the only person who is protected, as a victim, is the person who manages to get a conviction for the rapist through the courts. In my experience in secular higher education, we have a Student Services department that handles Code of Conduct cases, but the vast majority involve beaches of academic integrity, and moral/sexual/Mormon commandment issues are not part of it.
Anyway, can anyone advise me of the things to beware of from the administration, faculty, or other offices/authorities at BYU that can create unexpected, negative (or positive) consequences for a naive freshman (freshperson) attending BYU in Provo? This is a new thing for my family, to have someone at that university.
Thoughts welcome.
Heck yes. First, peruse this article I wrote that will give you some information about the honor code and how it affects women in particular: https://bycommonconsent.com/2013/06/17/byus-honor-code-hostile-environment-sexual-harassment/ When you are reported to the HCO, it’s almost always by an anonymous tattler. When you ask who reported you, they won’t tell you. You are called in and have to go immediately to meet with them or they’ll put you on academic hold. They assume 100% that you are guilty. The process is very unsettling, and you feel accused and under threat. I was only sent there once, but I did have an RA in an off campus apartment who was always trying to dig up dirt on people to send them there. When I was sent (the tattler said my 80s acid wash skirt was too short when I sat down), I wore the skirt to the meeting. They said it was OK, but that I shouldn’t wear it any more just in case. Because if you are accused of something, you are always always the one who will be inconvenienced and made to feel dirty and shameful. My son was reprimanded for wearing bike shorts on campus and also for razor stubble. I had male friends who were sent there for not wearing socks because “male leg hair is an extension of the pubic hair,” an utterly ridiculous assertion.
Congrats to your daughter. I’m also interested in everyone’s thoughts. This fall will be the first time we have someone there, too. Our family has been working to put this in a healthy and accurate perspective.
One thing I’ve already learned from a difficult situation at her undergraduate state school: don’t go to student ward bishops to complain about criminal behavior. It’s very hard for young girls to summon the courage to call the campus police. Honestly, I would role-play that. And what exactly is the relationship between campus and city police. It’s not a question of whether to call the police, just which ones. I’m not trying to scare you, but we have a very meek and mild kid who doesn’t want to make waves and almost can’t stand up for herself sometimes. I wish we had done more to help her trust her gut.
All I know from other friends with kids at BYU is that sometimes the atmosphere is paranoia-inducing. If I’m not mistaken the students are honor code-obligated to, for lack of a better word, inform. Our friends’ daughter came this close to not graduating because she fell asleep in her boyfriend’s living room past curfew and her roommates “brought it to the HC office’s attention.”
The honor code office has lots of authority and you are guilty until proven innocent. I went to BYU in the 1990s and I know a few kids who were kicked out of school for having pre-marital sex. Yes, I understand that they agreed to the rules before they go to school, but kicking kids out of school sets them back potentially years. Nothing about the honor code office is Christlike in my opinion. Congratulations to your daughter – BYU is difficult to get into.
As my husband says, honesty is punished when it comes to the honor code. He went to BYUI and I believe they have the same honor codes and strictness? Forgive me if they don’t. I know my husband told me he saw people who were dishonest succeeding more than people who were honest. He knew someone who went to the bishop and asked for help with a pornography addiction. They kicked him out of school. He also had several teachers, idk if this is only a BYUI thing, who would let the students grade their own work and the teachers wouldn’t check it because they trusted you to be honest. But what ended up happening was the dishonest kids would get better grades than the honest students because the teachers just believed what the students put down. So the honest students had to choose between an honest lower grade, or lying a bit to pass the class. He started to feel like dishonesty was rewarded there. He learned to just not tell anyone anything that could get him into trouble. My $.02 worth: I have a daughter who graduated from BYU, and a son who attended a year, served a mission, and is currently a BYU student. I have another son who attended a year and is now on a mission, and yet a third son who is admitted in the fall. The simple answer to your question SD is to do what most people here do – fly under the radar and don’t call attention to yourself. Generally speaking, if your following the general rules you have nothing to worry about.
None of my children have had encounters with the honor code office, but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have. For the most part professors and others aren’t going to say anything to anyone. Even bishops to whom you confess don’t as a rule report anything to the honor code office – although I’m sure there are exceptions to that. There are a few students and staff members (including some RAs) who are very much like the scribes and pharisees and see it as their responsibility to report the sinners (see the parable of the prodigal son). Also, if you are wearing something that might be considered by some as immodest or you have razor stubble, don’t go to the testing center or any offices (like housing, financial aid, etc.). I don’t believe the school employs any spies as they once did (the Wilkinson Center is not named for a nice guy IMO).
Always Thinking wrote:As my husband says, honesty is punished when it comes to the honor code. He went to BYUI and I believe they have the same honor codes and strictness? Forgive me if they don’t. I know my husband told me he saw people who were dishonest succeeding more than people who were honest. He knew someone who went to the bishop and asked for help with a pornography addiction. They kicked him out of school. He also had several teachers, idk if this is only a BYUI thing, who would let the students grade their own work and the teachers wouldn’t check it because they trusted you to be honest. But what ended up happening was the dishonest kids would get better grades than the honest students because the teachers just believed what the students put down. So the honest students had to choose between an honest lower grade, or lying a bit to pass the class. He started to feel like dishonesty was rewarded there. He learned to just not tell anyone anything that could get him into trouble.
None of my kids went to the lesser BYU (AKA BYUI), but we have friends who have and have had kids there. BYUI is actually (believe it or not) much more strict than Provo. They have more rules in place (like no shorts), and they seem to pride themselves on being holier than thou when thou is BYU Provo. Our beloved Elder Bednar was president at BYUI, and I think he very much espouses the strict black and white approach they take.
As a side note, my youngest son was admitted to BYUI as well as BYU. Before BYU notified him of admission (BYUI had already) we were concerned that he might feel his only option was BYUI. It certainly was not, but we were having trouble getting him to apply to better universities for his major. For us in this case admission to BYU is a tender mercy.
@dark Jedi good to know! I am surprised that it’s more strict than BYU, that’s not what I would have expected! I have a daughter on a mission and she refuses to attend BYUI as she says they treat everyone like they were at a 4 year EFY, only more strict. She has had friends go there and come back saying, “I just can’t go there!” LookingHard wrote:I have a daughter on a mission and she refuses to attend BYUI as she says they treat everyone like they were at a 4 year EFY, only more strict.
She has had friends go there and come back saying, “I just can’t go there!”That happened with a couple of kids we know as well. Two of them only lasted a semester and came home and went to community college. I know these kids pretty well, fairly TBM for their age – and they couldn’t deal with it. I’m sorry, it’s easy for me to bash BYUI – but there are really only two kinds of kids that go there, those that can’t get into BYU Provo and a few who live close by. They take 99% of applicants, and their academic programs are not on par with their bigger sister institution.
Twice, I was reported to the Honor Code Office for clothing violations. I had always prided myself on dressing very conservatively at BYU. A friend stated my problem as, “It isn’t your fault that your cleavage starts at your neck.” Talking to other girls, those of us who had some Jessica Rabbit curves were more frequently reported than the girls who were built like boards.
It felt offensive and just odd to think that I was out there living my life, and random people got to judge and report me.
My advice: Fly under the radar.
Thanks everyone. Good to know. From what I’m hearing, the main thing to be aware of is are general, anonymous snitching, overzealous RA’s, and the Honor Code Office — right? Are there other culture things someone should be aware of who has never been to BYU-P? Any other things that would be helpful to know so you don’t get caught in the coincidental crossfires of life at that campus? For example, how are student wards organized, where do they meet, and what is the relationship between the Student Ward Bishop and the university? Also, how does your participation in your Student Ward interact with, or affect your life as a student?
SilentDawning wrote:Thanks everyone. Good to know. From what I’m hearing, the main thing to be aware of is are general, anonymous snitching, overzealous RA’s, and the Honor Code Office — right? Are there other culture things someone should be aware of who has never been to BYU-P? Any other things that would be helpful to know so you don’t get caught in the coincidental crossfires of life at that campus?
For example, how are student wards organized, where do they meet, and what is the relationship between the Student Ward Bishop and the university? Also, how does your participation in your Student Ward interact with, or affect your life as a student?
Lets’ not overstate the snitching/spying – it does happen but I wouldn’t say it’s widespread. I actually think that’s improved over the past few years. Remember the generation we’re dealing with now.
Culture: There is a constant – CONSTANT – undertone (that’s sometimes not so under) that everybody who hasn’t served a mission needs to and everybody who is not married needs to be dating and getting married. That’s not my perception, it’s the perception of my three kids who have been there – they all say the same thing. It is prevalent at church, stake conference speakers and bishoprics just come right out and say it, and even campus job bosses will say it. My son who is there now went for a temple recommend during the semester – his bishop asked him during the interview to commit to dating at least once per week. The most overwhelming pressure is peer pressure though.
Wards are organized geographically, some guys apartments and some girls apartments. They mostly meet on campus (even if you live off campus) either in chapel like buildings or multipurpose areas. Some do meet in regular chapels off campus. Bishops are often BYU employees or local professionals. In addition to Sunday meetings, they usually have Sunday evening “ward prayer” and most have monthly linger longer or break-the-fast. Apartments are organized into FHE groups, usually 1 or 2 guys apartments and 1 or 2 girls apartments and they also usually do activities. Students are assigned as HT/VT. Your daughter should get an email from her bishop before the semester starts, usually with a questionnaire. Most activity centers on your ward.
Hope that helps.
Great info – thanks! SD, As a non-member visiting professor at BYU, this author still might not “get” the problematic parts of the honor code for women, but here’s “In Defense of BYU’s Honor Code” –
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