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One of the main reasons for my faith transition is that I realized that scriptures – as a whole – are unhelpful and contradictory for me. If God wanted me to behave in a certain way or tell me he loves me, I have to dig pretty deep and liberally intepret hundreds of pages of scripture written in a dialect hundreds of years old. Last night at family home evening my son asked about some obscure scripture in the Pearl of Great Price. I pretty much told him I have no idea why it’s there and my wife (a very faithful member) said it’s not pertinent to our salvation. The question immediately popped into my mind – if it’s not pertinent then why in the world would God tell us about it? It’s sort of like me telling my kids – I have a secret and it’s really cool and it would blow your mind but the only hint is that it has to do with the secrets of the universe. And you have to die to find out the rest. If you ask a parent or a bishop or a prophet about it there’s a good chance they’ll tell you – maybe politely – to shut up.
I’m reading a book called “The Moral Arc: How Science and Reason Lead Humanity Towards Truth, Justice, and Freedom.” It’s a good read and builds a convincing case that morality cannot and should not be built on religion. One chapter pretty much destroys the 10 commandments as meaningful guidelines in the 21st century. I had always considered the 10 commandments to be common sense and agreed with most of them, so this was a new way of thinking for me. Also, he talks about some of Jesus’ teachings in the New Testament and critiques them from a moral teaching point of view – and finds them wanting…
I shared my testimony on Sunday and sincerely said that I’m grateful for prophets like President Monson and President Uchdorf who help me understand the scriptures in a personal and meaningful way.
RR, This is something I have become much more aware of over the last year, that we really don’t know much about the scriptures. Oh, as a church we know many of the verses, but we like to cherry pick and proof text as much as the next guy/gal.
In HPG on Sunday our lesson was on The Word and basically the teacher spent most of the lesson congratulating himself and the everyone else about how much better members of the “true church” know and understand the scriptures than other denominations. I wanted to ask some basics like: How many creation stories are there? Who wrote the Gospel of Mark, when was it written?
I didn’t know the answer to these questions until 9 months ago. I had never bothered to think about it or really think about the scriptures in a meaningful way, and I find most classes at church to be woefully underwhelming. Understanding more about the scriptures, where they came from, what the authors might have been thinking to be energizing and interesting and I wish we could discuss the scriptures in a more meaningful way.
I will have to check out the books you site in your OP, sounds interesting.
-SBRed
The Moral Arc does sound interesting – I’ll add it to my list. I have come to view what we have in scripture as more of that individual’s interpretation of things as he saw and understood them – while seeing through a glass darkly. In SS this past week we had the lesson where Peter is given the keys and where Jesus says “upon this rock.” There was a dear old sister who went on for a couple minutes about how the rest of the Christian world (especially Catholics) misinterpret that scripture to be about Peter when it’s really about revelation and we of the true church know that. Finally a high councilor (not me) spoke up and said something to the effect that we need to be very careful about believing there is only one interpretation of scripture, that we really don’t know what the writer intended or what Jesus actually said word for word. Either way, that particular scripture has multiple interpretations, nuance, and plays on words which could make any number of interpretations correct – including that Peter actually was the rock.
Really, I think most scripture is just somebody’s made up stories about their interpretation of what they believe God wants. Jesus told us what is necessary for our salvation, and it’s not much – and even then we’re subject to the interpretation of the gospel writers and perhaps modern prophets/apostles, all of whom see through a glass darkly. I have put away my childish things.
DarkJedi wrote:a high councilor (not me) spoke up and said something to the effect that we need to be very careful about believing there is only one interpretation of scripture, that we really don’t know what the writer intended or what Jesus actually said word for word…
I agree with your HC and you about this, but I think it goes against the traditional LDS narrative about having the truth and being the one true church. I interpret most scriptures as symbolic and not to be taken literally, but it seems that literalness is the way of the church.
DarkJedi wrote:
Really, I think most scripture is just somebody’s made up stories about their interpretation of what they believe God wants. Jesus told us what is necessary for our salvation, and it’s not much – and even then we’re subject to the interpretation of the gospel writers and perhaps modern prophets/apostles, all of whom see through a glass darkly. I have put away my childish things.Like
:thumbup: SunbeltRed wrote:Understanding more about the scriptures, where they came from, what the authors might have been thinking to be energizing and interesting and I wish we could discuss the scriptures in a more meaningful way.
Would love to take that gospel doctrine class from you…
Roadrunner wrote:DarkJedi wrote:a high councilor (not me) spoke up and said something to the effect that we need to be very careful about believing there is only one interpretation of scripture, that we really don’t know what the writer intended or what Jesus actually said word for word…
I agree with your HC and you about this, but I think it goes against the traditional LDS narrative about having the truth and being the one true church. I interpret most scriptures as symbolic and not to be taken literally, but it seems that literalness is the way of the church.
I agree with you that the more orthodox likely do see all scripture with only one correct interpretation and as black and white. I was ready to jump to my colleague’s defense – but it was not necessary.
FWIW, I’ll offer a little bit of a different perspective. I love the NT and read from it somewhat frequently. I consider myself fairly well versed in the history of the NT from a secular standpoint, and I compartmentalize that understanding off to one side when I’m reading for inspiration. One aspect of the scriptures that has been pointed out is that there is a lot of stuff that just doesn’t matter. I choose to look only at the stuff that does. For example, consider this verse from Leviticus:
Quote:And the remnant of the meat offering shall be Aaron’s and his sons’: it is a thing most holy of the offerings of the Lord made by fire. –Leviticus 2:3
OK, fine, whatever, I lost interest when I saw the name of the book. But, now look a this significantly more impactful verse that has the exact same number of words:Quote:Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life.” –John 8:12
I have automatically filtered the wheat from the chaff in the above examples, and I’d much rather have wheat mingled with chaff that I must sift out than to have nothing.I actually believe the scriptures are the friend of people like us. In them, we can find the meaning that resonates with us, and we can pay less attention to the rest. In other words, unlike a service or ritual that you might attend where someone else is the voice, the scriptures are extremely personal and open to our own individualized interpretation. It’s the perfect medium for cafeteria worship. Paul was the most important Christian (including Jesus), IMO, and he was a theologian for the ages. Theologically speaking, Paul was a liberal nutjob; hell-bent on breaking down barriers between mankind and God, and seeing a divine relationship between us and God that required no watchful eye of religious hierarchy or rules. I believe if he were alive today, people like us would LOVE Paul.
Quote:SunbeltRed wrote:
Understanding more about the scriptures, where they came from, what the authors might have been thinking to be energizing and interesting and I wish we could discuss the scriptures in a more meaningful way.
I took that task on by myself, I haven’t quite mustered up the balls to make big class room pronouncements, but I bought Making Sense of the New Testament by Holzapfel (LDS) and Understanding the New Testament by Howard Clark Kee (not LDS, Christian Scholar). I really like comparing their notes and thoughts.
On Own Now wrote:I actually believe the scriptures are the friend of people like us. In them, we can find the meaning that resonates with us, and we can pay less attention to the rest. In other words, unlike a service or ritual that you might attend where someone else is the voice, the scriptures are extremely personal and open to our own individualized interpretation. It’s the perfect medium for cafeteria worship. Paul was the most important Christian (including Jesus), IMO, and he was a theologian for the ages. Theologically speaking, Paul was a liberal nutjob; hell-bent on breaking down barriers between mankind and God, and seeing a divine relationship between us and God that required no watchful eye of religious hierarchy or rules. I believe if he were alive today, people like us would LOVE Paul.
I couldn’t agree more, OON. When I returned and was rebuilding my faith I only read from the NT. I mostly read from only it now, and most of my talk quotes are from it – mostly the words of Jesus. You’re absolutely correct that it is easy to toss out the crapola when the reading is yours without outside interpretation. I even avoid McConkie’s chapter headings and stuff (easy to do with online versions, even at LDS.org if you’re not signed in). My understanding is then mine, perhaps influenced by the Holy Ghost or perhaps not – it’s still mine. If God wants me to understand something specific He needs to make himself clearer about it. (As a side note, I have really come to like the New Revised Standard Version – NRSV – of the Bible.)
SunbeltRed wrote:
In HPG on Sunday our lesson was on The Word and basically the teacher spent most of the lesson congratulating himself and the everyone else about how much better members of the “true church” know and understand the scriptures than other denominations. I wanted to ask some basics like: How many creation stories are there? Who wrote the Gospel of Mark, when was it written?I didn’t know the answer to these questions until 9 months ago.
I had never bothered to think about it or really think about the scriptures in a meaningful way,and I find most classes at church to be woefully underwhelming. Understanding more about the scriptures, where they came from, what the authors might have been thinking to be energizing and interesting and I wish we could discuss the scriptures in a more meaningful way.
This is hands down my favorite thing about where I am right now and why I wouldn’t go back or change a thing. I’m finally curious.
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