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I just don’t know what to make of what happened yesterday. I am a lifelong faithful member. I have never had trouble with leadership in any ward until my current one which I’ve been in for 13 years. I am going through a divorce. Won’t go into details but it was a very painful decision for me. Before making the decision I went to my Bishop (I was serving as his counselor at the time) and talked about what was going on. I asked for Priesthood help and advice to save my family. He did tell me he had a son who was married to someone who was exactly the same and said he had to divorce to protect himself and his family, but did not advise me what to do. He simply said the Lord had nothing for me through him. I prayed, fasted, went to the temple…did all the church teaches us to do with difficult decisions. I felt strongly and repeatedly divorce was necessary. It is not the answer I wanted and fought it and did not act for a long time. Finally I moved forward with my decision. Bishop called me in and told me the Lord told him it was the wrong decision. He told me I would destroy my whole families chance at exaltation if I proceeded. He asked me to take it to the Lord again. I did and got the same answer. Yesterday I told him that and even showed him in the CHI where it says the Bishop may counsel, but it is the individual who must make the decision. Among many other things he told me I didn’t love or respect my kids. He told me I did not have a testimony and that I never have had one (I’m 47 and he’s only known me a little over a year so I don’t know how he determined that). Finally, he told me (I do have a little longer than shoulder length hair) that if I wasn’t willing to cut my hair, stop the divorce and do everything he told me that I should find another place to worship. Have I been unofficially excommunicated? Not sure how to interpret this but I sure don’t feel very welcome there. This sounds very unusual….that he would make comments like this. First of all, I’ve heard a number of times that priesthood leaders are NOT encouraged to tell people to split up. His first answer — that there would be nothing from the Lord to you through him, sounded a bit harsh, but seems more in line with what priesthood leaders do — leave the ultimate decision-making up to the individual and the Lord. Also, the comment about you never having a testimony seems VERY odd. No one can judge if a person has a testimony or not, really, particularly if they claim they do.
You have me wondering if we have all the details here. It sounds like very unusual behavior from a Bishop.
Last of all, there is no such thing as an unofficial excommunication — you might feel ostracized (I have before), and that might be your way of expressing it, but there isn’t anything like an unofficial excommunciation in the vocabulary of any priesthood leader I have every known….
Just another example of how some TBM’s take it way to far. The irony is that in their mind they think they are right, I mean they “Know” they are right. My brother-in-law was counseled to leave my sister because she questioned some of the church teachings. He said that really shocked him into seeing the effects of the black and white teachings of the church. They are now leaving the church and claim to be very happy with their decision. Hang in there, you sound sincere in your desire for what is best for all. How does your wife feel about all this? f4h1
Let’s be very clear… That bishop is OUT – OF – LINE. You read it yourself in the handbook! Leaders
cannothave personal revelations for other members. I would RARELY say “go over his head”, but this time that is really what you need to do. So sorry, for both situations and for this difficult time in your life.
Sorry to hear what you are going through clahcrah. Divorce and marriage problems are so painful and heart wrenching to go through. You did what you were taught to do by the church (pray, etc.). It sounds like you are not making this decision quickly or lightly. You should do what you think is right. And by “right,” there’s never really an option that is all-positive without any negative effects or consequences. It sucks being an adult sometimes … 😥 Sometimes the only options available are between bad and less bad — not simply right or wrong. Nobody else can make this decision for you.clahcrah wrote:Finally, he told me (I do have a little longer than shoulder length hair) that if I wasn’t willing to cut my hair, stop the divorce and do everything he told me that I should find another place to worship. Have I been unofficially excommunicated? Not sure how to interpret this but I sure don’t feel very welcome there.
This last part struck me as very odd. If nothing else, don’t listen to him. Based on the short description of facts, he’s out of line. I have never heard a Bishop tell someone they should go to another church … but there are 32,000+ LDS bishops in the world, so i’m not sure I could claim surprise at anything ever said.
If you were serving in the Bishopric, you know there’s no such thing as an unofficial excommunication. I understand not feeling welcome though. Who knows? I would ignore the guy and tell him to butt out of it if he isn’t going to provide any useful relevant advice, or at least minister to me in comfort to help me through such a painful experience. But i’m a pain in the butt like that.
clahcrah wrote:…Bishop called me in and told me the Lord told him it was the wrong decision. He told me I would destroy my whole families chance at exaltation if I proceeded. He asked me to take it to the Lord again. I did and got the same answer. Yesterday I told him that and even showed him in the CHI where it says the Bishop may counsel, but it is the individual who must make the decision…he told me I didn’t love or respect my kids. He told me I did not have a testimony and that I never have had one…Finally, he told me…that
if I wasn’t willing to cut my hair, stop the divorce and do everything he told me that I should find another place to worship.Have I been unofficially excommunicated? Sounds like a classic example of “unrighteous dominion” (D&C 121:39) to me; I would ignore his advice and do what you think is best even if it means staying away from church while you try to sort everything out.
Well, even excommunicated people and “Samaritans” are all WELCOME to attend church and be part of the faith. The bishop is out of line, and doesn’t understand the function of the church. He’s wrong, if we have the entire story. Period. SilentDawning wrote:You have me wondering if we have all the details here. It sounds like very unusual behavior from a Bishop
Thanks for your comments. Yes, by necessity this is the short story, but I’m not sure there are any other relevant details left out. The decision for divorce has been years in coming. Years I avoided acting on the answer I was getting. It is real, not just two people falling out of love. No laundry list is needed, but in short, serious things like mom telling kids she is going to kill herself and it will be their fault, praying to God to kill her in front of them, withdrawing and being unable to account for tens of thousands of dollars of family income, sabatoge of my business and therefore my ability to support the kids, etc. The problems in the ward are longstanding. I was previouisly denied a temple recommend unless I quit associating with another ward member the bishop did not want me to associate with, denying that member the Melchezidek Priesthood unless he quit associating with me, etc etc. All these things were taken to the Stake President, then to Salt Lake. The bishops decision was overridden each time. (Different bishops, not the same as now) When I was ordained a High Priest the Stake President called Salt Lake who directed him not to let the Bishop interview me. I was ordained with only a Stake President interview. The problems are real and longstanding, but I can’t say I blame you for wondering. To be honest, there have been several people move in to the ward after having heard various stories, and after being here a while admitting they always thought those telling the stories were exagerating until they moved here and saw it for themselves! Interestingly enough, the Stake President once told me I wasn’t the first to move into the ward to buck what was happening there based on established policy and doctrine, I was just the first to stick it out and not get discouraged and move away after a year or so.
Also, I do know there is no such thing as Unnoficial Excommunication. That was my failed attempt at injecting a little humor into the situation.
😆 Finally, I was pretty shocked when he said it, and am still not quite sure whether he was implying I should go to another ward or another religion, but in light of the fact that he believes I have no testimony and he stated sevearl times he felt I picked and chose what counsel I wanted to follow I’m pretty sure he was referring me to another religion entirely.
Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:How does your wife feel about all this?
f4h1
We have been separated for about 6 months. I don’t think she knows he told me this unless he told her.
I’m so sorry this is happening. It sounds like your wife is battling mental illness and that is so difficult for all involved. Bishops are not trained to deal with mental illness and often bring their own experience and stigma to the situation. Following your heart is important. Setting boundaries so abuse doesn’t occur is also important and I mean boundaries around your wife and the bishop. I know we are taught that our bishops can help us with any situation but I think the truth is that they are men with strengths and weaknesses. Trust yourself and seek professional help, that would be my advice. Peace to you and your family. Karina
“My hair like Jesus wore it. Haleluya, I adore it!” You could tell him you are trying to be like Jesus
😆 I am sorry for your challenges. For what its worth, I don’t think there is a “right” decision or a “wrong” decision. It sounds like you have weighed your options carefully.
Hang in there.
I feel your pain, I was divorced because my sons safety was at stake and I did not want to spend six months getting him from CPS. I prayed about it (like you) and knew I had to get divorced. I know it is a difficult decision. I went back to my former at least 4 times and each time I practically compromised my son, and then had to start all over (because my dang emotions got in the way). I would take the Bishop up on worshiping somewhere else; another ward in another stake. Moving to another ward in another stake during my divorce was the best thing that happened to me. I was in a ward where a bishop had helped many men that had gone through divorce. My “new’ bishop was non-judgmental, my new Elder’s quorum president was non-judgmental, as well as my home teacher. I don’t necessarily see what he told you was an “unofficial excommunication,” but it sounds like he was telling you to worship somewhere else. I don’t ever talk to people from the ward that I lived in when divorced. I cut ties with all of the people, since they were tainted by the lies of my former. My former lied to the Primary Presidency about my conduct. When I went and talked to my former Bishop he counselled both of us that if we didn’t learn to fix things then we would probably just perpetuate things into a new relationship and not learn. But, with mental illness that person either gets help and stays with the help or they become irreconcilable, unstable, unsafe, and detrimental to family, friends, and society at large. The money you pay for the best attorney possible will outweigh anything some Bishop says. You after all, are the priesthood line for your family, not your bishop (he is the one that should be reprimanded from higher up). Also, he doesn’t have jurisdiction over your marriage, the state in which you live does, and that is why they have family law attorneys and judge’s that hear family law cases. Once you see how “legal” marriage really is, the religious side should not outweigh your choice to divorce (if your marriage is beyond repair, the marriage is dead already). As members of the church we forget that the “law” does matter regarding marriage, and that marriage is not solely a spiritual or religious institution. Have you tried talking to your SP about it? I know there’s not exactly an appeals process in the church, but when a bishop is this far out of line his leaders should know about it. Clahcrah, I am SO sorry you are going through this. It sounds like you have done everything you can and have approached this most difficult decision carefully and responsibly. I wouldn’t think you have been “unofficially excommunicated”; I would think, as others have said, that you have a bishop who is totally out of line! Moving toward a divorce is hard enough without priesthood leaders making this worse.
I empathize with you. I would have stayed in my first marriage forever, whatever the cost. I am so grateful my ex- had to push for divorce (though I am not grateful it took her becoming suicidal to get to that point). This here Church doesn’t handle divorce very well, and it seems like your bishop is really handling things badly, especially given how well he knows you.
I hope you can get the support you need through this difficult process.
And for what it is worth, next month I will be celebrating four years of a wonderfully happy marriage. When in my marriage I could not imagine taking the step to leave it, but as soon as it was over my soul felt like it expanded. I don’t know the particulars of your situation, but I wanted to wish you well as someone very happy on the other side.
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