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Pride is tricky. I’ve heard the phrase used to describe just about everything under the sun. I have yet to see a definition that is all encompassing — that is general enough to cover the spectrum of pride. but specific enough to isolate the “boundaries” of pride. As I explore this, I would like to propose a few situations, and then see if you identify these situations as pride:
1. A person suffers from low self-esteem. Someone says or does something that echoes the person’s own feelings of inadequacy in a hurtful way, and spawns more feelings of inadequacy or negative feelings about oneself.
The person who is subject to the negative stimulii about themself, responds by feeling offended, withdrawing from the hurtful person, and perhaps even quitting a calling that requires them to work with the offending person. Underlying their reaction is a feeling of embarassment, as well as a desire to remove the negative behavior from their life. Is this pride?
2. You are putting in long hours in selfless service to others. You give until hurts (as Mother Teresa says). A number of people in the group you are serving are not only unappreciative, they take you for granted. And some are outright rude. You find this wearing after a time, and then withdraw from the calling/service. Accompanying this reaction are feelings of near anger and frustration that you are giving and giving, but the people respond with indifference and an apparent lack of appreciation. is this pride?
Pride in the usual sense is easy — thinking one is better than others due to their status, belongs, etcetera. I find arrogance and pride are very similar. But these other two — it’s not so clear to me if they are pride or not.
1) No. Defensive measures are not prideful.
2) It depends.
For example, does the person withdraw because they think they are better than the other people and that those simpletons / ingrates / whatever don’t appreciate the person enough and the special insight the person has – or does the person withdraw simply because they aren’t able to initiate needed or worthwhile change and their efforts are being wasted?
There are any number of possible motivations, and whether or not pride is involved depends on the motivation that causes the action.
Old-Timer wrote:
2) It depends.For example, does the person withdraw because they think they are better than the other people and that those simpletons / ingrates / whatever don’t appreciate the person enough and the special insight the person has
In my case, it would be for this reason — I am putting in a lot of hours to try to help people, and when they respond ungratefully, or in a dismissive or nasty way, it no longer seems worth it. I wouldn’t call it special insight, but would say it’s kind of “I’m doing all this for you, to help you, and you are being rude and unsupportive to the point I feel discouraged about continuing this”.
Quote:– or does the person withdraw simply because they aren’t able to initiate needed or worthwhile change and their efforts are being wasted?
Definitely this. When I was HPGL, I felt this way. I once visited about 200 homes and simply ended up documenting why they weren’t coming to church. It was discouraging to the point I wondered why I was doing it. The BoM scripture about crying all your days for repentence and saving only one soul makes it worth it, did not resonate.
I also think there is a certain amount of “I refuse to be ‘treated’ this way”. A kind of “I’m better than this”. Not better than anyone, but thinking that I deserve more simply out of respect for humanity, not any special talents I may have. Particularly when I am putting in a lot of hours for free, out of my own goodwill. I wonder why I’m bothering when people are unappreciative.
Quote:There are any number of possible motivations, and whether or not pride is involved depends on the motivation that causes the action.
If the motive is to elevate oneself over another, I think that might be a succinct starting definition of pride.
Here is a third situation.
1. We once applied for an adoption for reasons you know of, Ray. We were rejected because the LDS social services agency told us they were too afraid I would be unfaithful due to the nature of the problem. This floored me as I felt eternal family was at the heart of our mission, I was faithful to my wife, serving as a Stake Exec Sec at the time, had been a High Councilor, YM president, Stake YM President, and was temple worthy. Had “saved myself” until marriage — all that. I was floored that that church would have so little faith in me as a person given the commitment i had shown to fidelity my whole life, and after 5 years of marriage. It wasn’t that I felt “better than anyone” or high and mighty, but that I found it hard to hear the glorious mission of the church on Sunday, and to find our own church had no faith in my ability to live that mission, and would not help me have my own eternal family.
My commitment waned to the point I stopped holding a TR and stopped serving. One of my friends in the church told me it was pride that was keeping me out of the temple. Would you consider that pride?
SilentDawning wrote:Pride is tricky.
I’ve heard the phrase used to describe just about everything under the sun. I have yet to see a definition that is all encompassing — that is general enough to cover the spectrum of pride. but specific enough to isolate the “boundaries” of pride…Pride in the usual sense is easy — thinking one is better than others due to their status, belongs, etcetera.I find arrogance and pride are very similar. But these other two — it’s not so clear to me if they are pride or not. Pride and selfishness are such strong natural in-born human traits that they will never realistically be overcome completely and any conscious struggle against them is more of a balancing act to decide how much “sin” we can live with. In fact not everyone will even agree that pride is a bad thing to begin with. For example, where do we draw the line between inappropriate pride and a healthy level of self-confidence, self-esteem, etc.? And for all the preaching against pride in the Church and various scriptures it looks like pride has become a big part of what Mormonism is all about at this point. There is pride about belonging to the “one and only true church”, supposedly knowing more and being more righteous than the outside world, temple marriage, missions, even having a large number of children that are active in the Church. Basically we have one obvious ego trip after another going on in the Church where members like to think they are special or better than others in one way or another. I’m not saying that I am the most humble guy in the world myself but it is interesting to see all this obvious pride in a church that repeatedly talks about how bad pride is as much as the LDS Church does.
In all fairness, that tendency and manifestation of pride is not unique in any way to Mormonism. It is part and parcel of humanity, as you said, throughout humanity – in all religions, denominations and even irreligious groups (including atheists). Most people think they have “The Answer” in something that still is subjective and/or unproven. It is frustrating to see it manifest so frequently among “our own” – but, again in all fairness, we can see examples of it within ourselves sometimes in how we talk about “TBMs” or “fundamentalists” or “the orthodoxy” or any number of categorizations that imply we know better than others about things that are subjective. It shows even here in this forum sometimes – and, interestingly, it often is not understood as pride by the person or people exhibiting it (and I include myself in that description).
I believe pride is a condition of the heart, not a specific situation. I agree with those who have given examples where they chose to disassociate with those who didn’t recognize their individual value. That, I believe, is actually the opposite of pride. My definitions of pride and humility are not ones generally recognized by the world, but I believe they are recognized by the Lord. I believe pride is simply believing that some people are better or worse than others. Humility is believing that everyone is of great and equal worth. When we believe everyone is of equal worth, we aren’t willing to put up with people treating us as though we are less than they are.
Those caught in the us/them mentality concerning church activity are prone to misinterpret everything a person does pertaining to the church. Any act that takes a person away from church can be misconstrued to mean that person is acting in pride. These people have a false idea of the true meaning of pride and will never understand it until they are willing to open their mind to the possibility that the church is not the end all and be all of salvation.
I would like to define pride as negative behavior toward others that is a result of perceived superiority. Now, I have a follow up to this. Some people say that humble people are never offended. What is the relationship between taking offense, and lacking humility? And is humility the opposite of pride?
Pride is an emotional response cultivated from millions of years of evolution to ensure survival of the species. For every negative example, one could give a positive example of pride as well.
I think it is mostly a mormon cultural taboo that gets rehashed over and over that makes folks like us on this forum talk about it.
Quote:Some people say that humble people are never offended.
Those people don’t understand humility and offensive things.
People who never are offended are people who either have no heart or conscience or people who don’t care deeply enough about anything to recognize truly offensive things. Some things simply are offensive in nature, and some are DEEPLY offensive. Not taking offense at them is a character flaw. Yes, we can choose in most cases whether to be offended or not – but, in some cases, taking offense is the appropriate and moral things to do.
Humble people are offended less than proud people, but humility and taking offense are not mutually exclusive.
Quote:And is humility the opposite of pride?
I think humility or charity can be positioned as the opposite of pride – and I actually prefer charity, since humility is misunderstood and abused or manipulated more than charity.
Thanks — I feel that whatever raises angst in me, and encourages me to stop serving isn’t related to pride. Probably something else, which likely has a positive side to it at the same time. I’m not sure what it is. Some say I’m “oversensitive”, which may be its own flaw that doesn’t require much analysis. Often, it’s I get fed up with the lack of cooperation I see from others. At other times, I see that results achieved given time invested is in a bad ratio, even considering long-term possible results. I know that in one context I quit a position because I could never get the people above me to follow through on commitments they made to provide information or resources that only they could provide due to the organizational structure. I got tired of following up with them and got frustrated they didn’t seem to care about supporting the people under them — after they agreed to help.
Today, I heard more confusion over pride at church. Someone equated it to selfishness. Which, I think is yet another construct, separate from pride.
How would you define selfishness in a way that distinguishes it from pride, which I defined (as a working definition) as negative behavior toward others spawned by belief in one’s own superiority?
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