URGENT – Need Advice

[Anonymous]

Greetings all-

I was planning on starting the new year posting a different topic, but this recently came up.

My wife is interested in going to the Temple with me. I haven’t been in a while. I haven’t renewed my TR this year due to my concerns. I’ve always answered the TR questions “correctly”. I believe I still can, except for the last one…

Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?

My answer ‘today’ would be NO. Not because of any ‘sins’ but my heart is not there like it used to be. (That’s why I came to this site STAYLDS over others.) Essentially I have a ‘bad attitude’.

My wife is a TBM. I really haven’t discussed my issues with her as I believe that she would be really hurt. Plus I want to make sure of my feelings…that takes time.

We have a great marriage. We’ve always been honest with each other. I just don’t know if now is the right time to discuss my concerns.

No doubt many of you have had to cross this bridge before. How did it go and what advice can you give me?

Thanks,

BOC

[Anonymous]

Hey BOC,

I remember during my mission that I felt uncomfortable telling my MP that I was “worthy” (how many mission rules had I broken? how many times had I not worked as hard as I could/should? how many times did I just go through the motions [like tracting] but my heart wasn’t in the right place?).

I told him that while I was uncomfortable with the term worthy, I did confidently know that my presence would not diminish the sacredness/spirit of the Temple.

He accepted my answer and then talked briefly about how sometimes we are our own biggest critics.

If you BOC, feel that your presence will diminish the sacredness/spirit of the Temple – then you shouldn’t go. If you feel that you will interrupt the ability of others to have a special worship experience – then you shouldn’t go. If you feel that the Temple ceremony will trigger such anger and resentment that you and your wife fight all the way home (and maybe beyond) – then you shouldn’t go.

If OTOH the only reason you had for going to the temple was the desire to spend quality time with DW and do something that is important to her and the only thing holding you back was wondering if your heart was in the right place and your motives were pure – then I think you should definitely go…and maybe stop for ice cream on the way home. :thumbup:

I don’t know when/how would be the best way to open the subject of your doubts with DW, but I know that it would not be ideal to have that conversation be intertwined with why you can no longer accompany her to the temple.

Hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

You need to do a cost-benefit analysis. Weigh the cost of hurting your wife and your relationship against the cost of going to the temple. Which is least costly? It sounds like a tradeoff…I agree with Roy that I’d go to the temple as their are shades of belief. You apparently have no flagrant disobedience to the basic commandments, so I would get the TR and go with her. I wouldn’t let the temple interfere with having a good marriage (sounds strange, but that’s how I view the temple now on many different levels).

We have talked at length here about how to get through the TR interview with integrity even when you are having doubts and confusion, should you decide you want to go. There is a lot of good advice in other threads. And probably new advice if you ask.

[Anonymous]

If you can answer all the questions but the last one ‘correctly’ then you are technically ‘worthy’. But of course technical worthiness is not what’s important here. You want to be able to say ‘yes’ to that last question without reservation and without being disingenuous. Frankly, I’m a little puzzled why someone in your situation whose only ‘fault’ is trying to approach life as honestly as possible would feel unfit to go to the temple as a result of that. I assume that your primary motivation to go is in order to be with and support your wife. I can’t think of a more worthy motivation than that. I also assume that, though you may or may not buy into the the claims regarding the temple and temple ceremonies, you can appreciate that many people do, and that that fact invests the temple with a sacredness in and of itself that you can recognize and honor much as you would if you were visiting a sacred place of worship of any other faith. I say you’re good to go.

Since when is having a bad attitude a sign of unworthiness, anyway?

[Anonymous]

You need to make the ultimate decision yourself, but I agree with everyone else. I will add one thing, that I hope will help somehow:

Generally speaking, I view the final question as the most important one, since it allows for personal interpretation of all the other questions, but . . .

For someone who can answer every other “correctly” (with just a simple “yes” or “no”), I think the final question is an opportunity for those who want to talk more about it with a Bishop or Stake President to do so. In essence, it’s a way of saying, “Yes, I am objectively ‘worthy’ of attending, but I just don’t feel good about it for some readon. My heart’s not in it.”

I get that on an intellectual and emotional level, but I don’t know if that would be a good or bad thing for you in your current situation – and I suspect it might not be good. I suspect you ought to work through it with your wife first – IF you ever work through it with anyone “in real life” (as opposed to here – ). However, I’m not convinced you ever have to work through it “in real life” with anyone until you have done so “privately” first. It’s just MUCH more complicated when you add more people to the mix – especially someone who officially has a responsibility to “guard the flock”, so to speak, and might see threats where none actually exist.

My own perspective, if it was me in your situation, would be to go – to clear my mind while there, not pay any attention whatsoever to what it happening “ceremonially (just “go through the physical motions” when it’s time) and let my mind wander and see what hits me. I do that most of time when I go, frankly, and I really love the temple and what it symbolizes. I’ve been there enough that I hear and see NOTHING new – but I feel and learn quite a bit on a fairly regular basis when I go. I’m not learning from the temple, per se; I’m trying to learn directly from God.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the comments above. My response to your question was that 2 things came to mind:

1) Like others said, “worthiness” and your willingness to go to the temple in your state of mind is your personal choice. It can be done, or it may be too painful for you to enjoy it (cost-benefit, as SD said). I had a wonderful experience in the temple just a couple months ago. I remember thinking that if God was speaking to me there, and he knows my heart and my head and all my beliefs and where I’m at with my non-traditional faith, and He seems to think its OK to give me wonderful inspiration that I received…then it just confirmed my thoughts going into it…which is that I’m doing OK by following my conscience, even if others might not agree with me or consider me worthy. The temple can be what you make of it. Or you can choose to not deal with it. It is your choice, your journey…there is no one right answer for it.

2) The second part also struck me that you also have the other situation of your spouse and if she would be hurt if you didn’t go, and that she doesn’t really understand you and your faith right now. It sounds like there are some things, maybe slowly and cautiously, that you and her need to discuss to understand each other in order to be one, which is what going to the temple is partly about…being one with family and with God. So whether you decide to go to the temple or not, there seems to be some things you need to address in your marriage outside the temple. The temple, or church attendance, or paying tithing or other financial decisions, may just all be things that surface the underlying issues that cannot be avoided forever. Again, from personal experience, I can say that it cannot always be worked out between couples. Sometimes it takes a while, and the right timing, dosage, and tact to know how to raise issues and talk about it productively. But eventually, whether you go to the temple or not, those other issues need to be addressed at some point, or it is hard to have a healthy partnership. And, that is not easily or quickly done.

[Anonymous]

I like everyone’s reply to this post.

Herb13, I agree with your 2nd part. My wife & I are addressing this issue at this point in our lives.

Our Christmas gift to each other is a trip to Nauvoo in Jan or Feb ’12. On this trip, we want to do all of the tourist stuff but, the main goal,

is to review (together) where we stand with our beliefs, our Church & our God. Not necessarily in that order.

Our spiritual life should be an on going adventure of discovery. Mine hasn’t been an adventure for a long time. For me, it’s time to make a change.

Let go & Let God, as they say.

BOC (& everyone on this site), best of luck on your journey.

Mike from Milton.

[Anonymous]

Mike, our house always is open to friends who are traveling in the area, if you want a home-cooked meal or a free room for a night or two. (We are known as a hotel for a reason. )

I know it might feel really weird, especially for your wife, but if you want to get together to any degree while you are in the area, let me know via a Private Message. I’ll give you my e-mail address and/or cell phone number so we can arrange whatever you’d like to do.

(I normally would have sent this message via a PM, but I figured I might as well get it out there to everyone, since you might not be the only person traveling to our area at some point.)

[Anonymous]

Thanks all for your excellent comments, suggestions and advice. I have scheduled a meeting with my Bishop to discuss some of my concerns. I really like my current Bishop as I know he will understand and not be judgmental like other leaders I have had before.

I think one of the biggest issues for me is that I no longer wear the invisible TBM hat on my head anymore. The only person who knows I’m no longer wearing the hat is me and this forum plus the Big Guy.Since I took it off I am concerned about bringing negative vibes into the House of the Lord. It’s like the big Guy will say BOC, you are not wearing the hat I gave you, what are you doing in MY House.

I believe that some of these feelings I have come from the disappointment I have after reading deeper into Church history. It’s almost like learning that there is no Santa Claus. I feel like I have not been told the complete story and that I have been deceived by not getting the full picture. I only got the ‘pretty’ picture. Honesty and integrity is extremely important to me.

This forum has been very good for me. I’m learning a lot and no longer feel like the lone ranger.

Peace,

BOC

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote,

Quote:

If you feel that your presence will diminish the sacredness/spirit of the Temple – then you shouldn’t go. If you feel that you will interrupt the ability of others to have a special worship experience – then you shouldn’t go. If you feel that the Temple ceremony will trigger such anger and resentment that you and your wife fight all the way home (and maybe beyond) – then you shouldn’t go.

I think that is very good point. Lately, I too have not been personally motivated, or feeling like I am able to go to the temple even though my recommend is still valid.

I just don’t feel that spiritual there anymore. When I was younger prior to my divorce I had a great feeling there, now I feel that somehow I have offended heaven and really don’t have that special feeling I once did. I will hear of family members’ extra spiritual experiences at the temple, and sometimes think (TMI) keep it to yourself, I’m not getting those types of experiences, don’t make me feel worse. In my case it isn’t that I don’t feel worthy, I just don’t see the point, or have that intense desire. Right now I want to go to the gym and work out almost every day. My intense desire is to be healthy, and build physical strength since I have always felt like a weakling. I was excited that I have built muscle and I am able to lift more than I could before. Perhaps there is a season under heaven for the temple and a time to go without it. Maybe if my zeal for the temple was as great as working out then I would be fine.

A bishop told me once that he permitted a sister to have a recommend notwithstanding the fact that according to the temple questions, she probably shouldn’t go to the temple, yet he did not want her to miss her daughter’s sealing and have more anger and resentment against the church. He judged that she signed the recommend and that it would be on her conscience if she was worthy or not, and that she could still repent afterward. I thought about this and thought of how Christ-like he was (I think she had a minor word of wisdom infraction of coffee/tea). I think he did the correct thing. I don’t think she was going to go to the temple after the sealing, she just wanted to be there for her daughter’s important day.

[Anonymous]

Ray, thank you for the offer. We haven’t had the chance to go away by ourselves for sometime. Plus, I think some of our discussions will be rather intense. We haven’t really taken the time to talk about spirtual matters in along time. I have been trying to document the elements of what I really believe. It has been an interesting process. I want to share that with her too.

It would be nice to meet you sometime. Thanks again for the offer.

Jamison wrote: “I just don’t feel that spiritual there anymore. When I was younger prior to my divorce I had a great feeling there, now I feel that somehow I have offended heaven and really don’t have that special feeling I once did. I will hear of family members’ extra spiritual experiences at the temple, and sometimes think (TMI) keep it to yourself, I’m not getting those types of experiences, don’t make me feel worse. In my case it isn’t that I don’t feel worthy, I just don’t see the point, or have that intense desire. Right now I want to go to the gym and work out almost every day. My intense desire is to be healthy, and build physical strength since I have always felt like a weakling. I was excited that I have built muscle and I am able to lift more than I could before. Perhaps there is a season under heaven for the temple and a time to go without it. Maybe if my zeal for the temple was as great as working out then I would be fine.”

First, I recently discovered my local gym. I forgot how relaxing a good work out can be. (The whirl pool & steam room helps too.) We sometimes forget how tense the normal daily grind can be. Overtime it can take a toll on our mind, body & spirit.

Second, regarding your lack of spiritual experinces at the temple. If the temple doesn’t work, find someplace else. Go to an art museum, a play or concert.

This may sound strange, but I discovered God at my local dog park. (Think about it. Dog spelled backwards is…) That’s a joke.

Mike from Milton.

[Anonymous]

jamison wrote:

I don’t think she was going to go to the temple after the sealing, she just wanted to be there for her daughter’s important day.

Too bad you can’t get a “day pass” or a “visitor’s pass” to the temple – Not valid to perform/receive ordinances, just as a spectator/attendee. Come to think about it, the Kirtland and Nauvoo temples weren’t closed to the public – so maybe that isn’t an “eternal principle” – just current church policy – and if it is just church policy – it can change.

[Anonymous]

Ball_of_Confusion wrote:

…this recently came up…My wife is interested in going to the Temple with me. I haven’t been in a while. I haven’t renewed my TR this year due to my concerns. I’ve always answered the TR questions “correctly”. I believe I still can, except for the last one…

Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?

My answer ‘today’ would be NO. Not because of any ‘sins’ but my heart is not there like it used to be…Essentially I have a ‘bad attitude’…My wife is a TBM. I really haven’t discussed my issues with her as I believe that she would be really hurt. Plus I want to make sure of my feelings…that takes time…We have a great marriage. We’ve always been honest with each other. I just don’t know if now is the right time to discuss my concerns…No doubt many of you have had to cross this bridge before. How did it go and what advice can you give me?

Personally I wish this last temple interview question was the only requirement and then I could have already been married in the temple. As it is I felt compelled to tell my wife I don’t believe in the Church anymore which basically ruined her fairy-tale ending simply because I couldn’t stand the idea of being manipulated by the Church for the rest of my life. I could still end up getting divorced mostly over religious differences but even in that case I wouldn’t regret saying no to some of the Church’s unreasonable expectations. I guess you have to weigh the expected consequences and decide what is most important to you. If you feel that uncomfortable about it maybe you could just tell your wife that without going into too many details about why you feel that way and say that maybe you will feel better about it later to buy some more time to think about it and decide what you want to do.

What will happen if you don’t have a temple recommend? Typically other people will know about it and judge you (unfairly) based on this fact. That’s why I wouldn’t blame anyone for just telling them what they want to hear especially if you don’t mind the Word of Wisdom and paying tithing that much. It looks like the main thing they really care about is some level of token outward acceptance of Mormon traditions and commitment to the Church. Most of these interview questions remind me of an overprotective mother nagging her children to be careful and do what they’re told (I.E. be a good Mormon so you don’t fall away from the one true path). I have no doubt that many people lie to get in especially about embarrassing questions like chastity so it’s not like they can re-dedicate the temples to make them “holy” again every time someone that doesn’t quite match what they are asking for goes there.

[Anonymous]

Ball_of_Confusion wrote:

Thanks all for your excellent comments, suggestions and advice. I have scheduled a meeting with my Bishop to discuss some of my concerns. I really like my current Bishop as I know he will understand and not be judgmental like other leaders I have had before.

(cringe)… (wince)… I don’t know, BOC, i think you’re asking the wrong person. You may think the bishop won’t be judgmental, but the bishop, by definition, is the judge in israel. It is his job to protect the church from apostasy. if you come to him with your doubts, his only tool to fix it is called ‘church discipline’. He has to treat your doubts as potential apostasy, and that may mean referral to the stake president for potential disciplinary action.

Ball_of_Confusion wrote:

I think one of the biggest issues for me is that I no longer wear the invisible TBM hat on my head anymore. The only person who knows I’m no longer wearing the hat is me and this forum plus the Big Guy.Since I took it off I am concerned about bringing negative vibes into the House of the Lord. It’s like the big Guy will say BOC, you are not wearing the hat I gave you, what are you doing in MY House.

Well, if you think the big guy is saying that, it’s because you’re bringing that particular big guy’s voice in with you. Seriously. Who says you are not worthy before the Lord? You do. Not the church, unless you have ‘a meeting with your Bishop to discuss some of your concerns’. And, once you open up pandora’s box, then there are a lot of other things that will happen — ripples that affect your family and your social fabric within the church. I’m not saying that it isn’t worth it if one feels strongly about leaving the church — but that is the choice you’re potentially making — are you prepared for that?

The real issue, in my impression, is that you feel disaffected and therefore ‘not worthy’. your worthiness, however, is between you and god, and the church should not be a party to that worthiness unless you make it one. Therefore, in my process to reconcile disaffection, I had to come to a tangible understanding of my own belief, my own relationship with god, and my own sense of worthiness and worth. As a result, and without deception, I can answer the worthiness questions honestly and without elaboration; and I can go to the temple confident of my relationship with god, independent of my disaffectation with church history or dogmatism. That’s what works for me — it may not work for anyone else.

My point: if the temple is God’s house, than ask God if you’re worthy, and be confident of the answer he gives. If the temple is not God’s house, then what does it matter?

[Anonymous]

wayfarer wrote:

Ball_of_Confusion wrote:

“Thanks all for your excellent comments, suggestions and advice. I have scheduled a meeting with my Bishop to discuss some of my concerns. I really like my current Bishop as I know he will understand and not be judgmental like other leaders I have had before.”

(cringe)… (wince)… I don’t know, BOC, i think you’re asking the wrong person. You may think the bishop won’t be judgmental, but the bishop, by definition, is the judge in Israel. It is his job to protect the church from apostasy. if you come to him with your doubts, his only tool to fix it is called ‘church discipline’. He has to treat your doubts as potential apostasy, and that may mean referral to the stake president for potential disciplinary action.

One of the things we have discussed here is how the bishop is usually not well equipped to understand/counsel doubters. One – he is rank and file TBM, so his own testimony may be in jeopardy if he empathizes with you too much. Two – as Wayfarer pointed out, his job is to pastor the flock – and your confession may be received as a declaration that you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing (this very StayLDS website has been publicly called a wolf in sheep’s clothing).

Related but somewhat different, is that he is a church administrator. Yes he has some leeway, but when it comes down to it he is a cog in the great machine. To illustrate this last point, I had a predominantly positive visit with my former Bishop. We discussed how I had been disillusioned with the cause and affect belief that church obedience/ general righteousness leads to specific and quantifiable blessings. He agreed with me, said that many members of our congregation had that type of Rate of Return limited/unrealistic faith but long years of experience doesn’t always bear that out. He told me that as a friend and as the father of the ward he empathizes with me and feels that I am on the road to a deeper faith, but that as a church administrator it was his duty to confiscate my TR (for ceasing to tithe).

wayfarer wrote:

Well, if you think the big guy is saying that, it’s because you’re bringing that particular big guy’s voice in with you.

I agree. Please compare and contrast the reaction of your mental conception of the “Big Guy,” to the reaction of the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son. Did the father say, you have squandered the inheritance that “I gave you, what are you doing in MY House?” NO!

As far as worthiness goes, (in my personal experience history) I felt like everyone (in my family) was depending on me to hold the refuge of our home together and keep the adversary/the world at bay. When I was performing my religious duties and calling down the blessings of heaven upon my family, it all fit together and everything went nicely. After tragedy struck, I felt like a failure. The Lord is bound when you do what He says… so it must have been me, I must have failed. Anyway fast forward 2 years and 1 year after finding this site, I know that I am a failure… I fail at being the master of my own little universe… I fail at controlling the uncontrollable (and I begin see uncontrollable variables in almost everything I do). In my failure to become something better than I am, I found my Heavenly Father’s love for me, “just as He wanted [me] to be.” (1 Cor. 12:18) For me, discovering worthiness post faith crisis was about allowing myself to feel God’s love, and feeling His permission to love myself.

Long version of my story here: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1937&hilit=bad+things+good+people

Please let us know how it goes, whatever you decide.

[Author]

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