Utah and Depression

[Anonymous]

Featherina wrote:

(Referring to the other thread “on being offended”…)…Ray, BeLikeChrist is right….I don’t think that using anti-depressants is evil…There are definitely times when psychotropic drugs can save lives or make lives more bearable….But IMO, they are way over-used and cause more harm than good…Usually pain serves a purpose… to tell us something’s wrong….If we ignore the pain & just try to medicate over it, we aren’t addressing the source of pain.

This is an interesting topic that I have been thinking about for a while. Whenever I’ve gone to other states for a few days or weeks I’ve never looked around and thought that the people there seemed so happy, well-adjusted, and pleasant to deal with that I would rather live there instead of Utah. I see sadness, disappointment, and frustration everywhere. Maybe it is hard to tell sometimes if many try to hide the way they really feel inside but some of the most severely depressed people I have known were actually completely inactive members so if it was mostly the Church’s fault then it seems like leaving the Church for practical purposes should have cured them but it didn’t. Personally I don’t believe using prescription drugs is necessarily bad or wrong; if they help some people to function, feel better, and/or cope with life better than they would otherwise then good for them for doing what they need to do to seek some relief from the suffering.

However, I definitely think the LDS Church contributes to depression in a way that is worse than average. The reason I believe this is simply because some psychologists have found that negative internal dialogues where people constantly tell themselves they are not good enough and that things should be different than they are can actually directly cause chemical imbalances and severe depression. As far as I’m concerned, many of the established Mormon traditions and doctrines we hear in lessons and talks actually reinforce and encourage the kind of negative distorted thinking that cognitive therapy tries to expose and counteract as a fairly effective treatment for depression (there was another thread related to cognitive therapy: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2043). What’s worse is that from a traditional Mormon perspective it is hard to ignore bad advice from Church leaders because of the ideas that the Church is literally the kingdom of God and that Church leaders should not be questioned because they are supposedly almost always right.

Even if people are not overly pessimistic I could see where if you have a family with one income and five or more children and you pay a full 10% of your gross income as tithing and then have difficulty paying your bills, accumulated debts, etc. that it could easily lead to severe depression and in my opinion it would not be unfair to say the Church was a major factor in this (I have heard that Utah has typically had unusually high rates of bankruptcy). Also if you have people that are single or divorced they are expected by the Church to be completely celibate so I guess they are just out of luck and stuck in a no-win situation where either they have the Church piling on the guilt and shame for supposed sexual sins or else they have no relief whatsoever for natural physical desires that aren’t being satisfied. Who could blame people like this for depending on Prozac, Zoloft, valium, oxycontin, etc. to help them tolerate their almost unbearable situation?

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the comments, Bridget, Gerald, Brown, Ray & DevilsAdvocate.

Bridget,

Thanks for sharing that article.

Women have pressure enough based on media, but then there are social pressures in the church too… & I do think some comes from leaders.

To be married, to be doing this & that & this & that while also doing this this & that & that.

Having children is tough! And considering how many children there are in Utah…

And how many women are just popping them out without any break (mentally or physically)… it’s understandable if many moms get depressed.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Featherina wrote:

(Referring to the other thread “on being offended”…)…Ray, BeLikeChrist is right….I don’t think that using anti-depressants is evil…There are definitely times when psychotropic drugs can save lives or make lives more bearable….But IMO, they are way over-used and cause more harm than good…Usually pain serves a purpose… to tell us something’s wrong….If we ignore the pain & just try to medicate over it, we aren’t addressing the source of pain.

This is an interesting topic that I have been thinking about for a while. Whenever I’ve gone to other states for a few days or weeks I’ve never looked around and thought that the people there seemed so happy, well-adjusted, and pleasant to deal with that I would rather live there instead of Utah. I see sadness, disappointment, and frustration everywhere. Maybe it is hard to tell sometimes if many try to hide the way they really feel inside but some of the most severely depressed people I have known were actually completely inactive members so if it was mostly the Church’s fault then it seems like leaving the Church for practical purposes should have cured them but it didn’t. Personally I don’t believe using prescription drugs is necessarily bad or wrong; if they help some people to function, feel better, and/or cope with life better than they would otherwise then good for them for doing what they need to do to seek some relief from the suffering.

However, I definitely think the LDS Church contributes to depression in a way that is worse than average. The reason I believe this is simply because some psychologists have found that negative internal dialogues where people constantly tell themselves they are not good enough and that things should be different than they are can actually directly cause chemical imbalances and severe depression. As far as I’m concerned, many of the established Mormon traditions and doctrines we hear in lessons and talks actually reinforce and encourage the kind of negative distorted thinking that cognitive therapy tries to expose and counteract as a fairly effective treatment for depression (there was another thread related to cognitive therapy: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2043). What’s worse is that from a traditional Mormon perspective it is hard to ignore bad advice from Church leaders because of the ideas that the Church is literally the kingdom of God and that Church leaders should not be questioned because they are supposedly almost always right.

Even if people are not overly pessimistic I could see where if you have a family with one income and five or more children and you pay a full 10% of your gross income as tithing and then have difficulty paying your bills, accumulated debts, etc. that it could easily lead to severe depression and in my opinion it would not be unfair to say the Church was a major factor in this (I have heard that Utah has typically had unusually high rates of bankruptcy). Also if you have people that are single or divorced they are expected by the Church to be completely celibate so I guess they are just out of luck and stuck in a no-win situation where either they have the Church piling on the guilt and shame for supposed sexual sins or else they have no relief whatsoever for natural physical desires that aren’t being satisfied. Who could blame people like this for depending on Prozac, Zoloft, valium, oxycontin, etc. to help them tolerate their almost unbearable situation?

A lot of good points.

There are happy & unhappy people everywhere… Still, with Utah’s percentage of anti-depressant use TWICE the national average, that’s an indication that something’s not right in Utah.

-It could be access to meds… except people who are really poor often get better medical attention than rich & there are wealthier states than Utah.

-It could be that they don’t have alcohol & sexual options so they have to find other coping strategies… except what kind of excuse is that? Do we excuse any harmful behavior because they needed to cope in THAT harmful way? What about learning to be assertive instead of letting anger build up with no release so it turns into depression? What about talking it out, exercising, & going on a walk & getting some vitamin D? What about reconsidering negative thinking patterns?

-It could be church pressure to have large families that people can’t handle emotionally & financially. (esp. giving 10% of their gross pay to the church)

-It could be people who question the church but can’t do it in Utah without some social pressure or pain.

-It could be that “too much of a good thing is NOT a good thing” – Mormonism (eat breathed & dreamed) in Utah may be just a little “too much of a good thing.”

This last one is a little commercial for the middle way.

Actually, there have been studies that indicate religion can help or harm mental & physical health, depending on one’s interpretation & approach.

Those extreme – either fanatical or non-involved fared worse & those who were involved, but more casually did best. (I’m still looking for the link.)

What you mentioned about the other thread & negative distorted thinking & cognition is similar to this:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/death-love-sex-magic/200909/is-religion-bad-your-health

“In sum, religion can be good for your health. But it can also threaten your health. To the extent that religion serves to bolster feelings of hope, optimism, self-esteem, belongingness, and meaning, it may be an important psychological resource for many people. It is worth noting that many people do not turn to religion for these psychological and social resources but instead rely on romantic relationships, friendships, social groups, and other meaningful personal and cultural investments. And these secular investments work just as well. However, when religious beliefs are at odds with scientific facts, are extremely dogmatic or inflexible, or provide people a way to avoid taking responsibility for their health, they can be deadly.”

[Anonymous]

alot of good points made here. i like the idea of being moderate in an organized religion. maybe being too involved could be considered too much of a good thing or metaphorically speaking “putting too many of your eggs in one basket”.

i think the harm from religious involvement comes when you surrender your all to a religion. i think we have to be careful of that, stand back and make sure we aren’t being too fanatical about our religious devotion.

[Anonymous]

Featherina wrote:

And there are too many girls and women with eating disorders because of the pressure to be perfect, or to “stuff” feelings.

Well, it’s not just women either. I have never felt handsome/attractive and am always puzzled when women display an interest in me. My body image is terrible, I am far too overweight.

By the way, I think I have suffered from depression on and off throughout my entire life. In the church, and out of it. Living the Word of Wisdom has helped flatten out the cycles a bit, although I do still suffer particularly during the winter, from lack of sunlight.

[Anonymous]

Featherina wrote:

A lot of good points…There are happy & unhappy people everywhere… Still, with Utah’s percentage of anti-depressant use TWICE the national average, that’s an indication that something’s not right in Utah.

-It could be that they don’t have alcohol & sexual options so they have to find other coping strategies… except what kind of excuse is that? Do we excuse any harmful behavior because they needed to cope in THAT harmful way? What about learning to be assertive instead of letting anger build up with no release so it turns into depression? What about talking it out, exercising, & going on a walk & getting some vitamin D? What about reconsidering negative thinking patterns?

I don’t necessarily want to make excuses for coping with sadness in unhealthy and irresponsible ways. However, I don’t think you can discount the possibility that if everyone was required and expected to be completely sober 24/7 and completely celibate if they are not married (and sometimes even if they are married) then maybe the overall use of prescription drugs would greatly increase for everyone else as well as long as they were still allowed without the same stigma. What is worse, prescription drug use or an increased level of alcohol abuse if you had to choose between the two? Maybe in an ideal world most people wouldn’t rely too much on anything like this to alter their mood but it seems like too many people want instant gratification and shortcuts to feel better ASAP to realistically expect to be able to impose some form of deprivation without having some of them try to compensate for it another way that will not always be an improvement overall.

As far as what exactly is wrong with Utah compared to other states I think it is a combination of many factors that are not always simple to understand or easy to change. Definitely typical practicing Mormons are given many additional responsibilities and expectations to worry about above and beyond what many non-Mormons and inactive members have to deal with. The pressure can feel overwhelming in the worst cases. On top of that, there are many fairly common tendencies that are not necessarily unique to Mormonism such as worrying too much about what others think about you, perfectionism, etc. that Church members and leaders will often emphasize and exaggerate even worse than average. What will fix the problem? Personally I don’t see the Church going away or changing much any time soon so I try not to let it bother me too much even though I think the Church deserves a significant amount of blame for making many people more depressed than they would be otherwise.

[Anonymous]

BeLikeChrist wrote:

alot of good points made here. i like the idea of being moderate in an organized religion. maybe being too involved could be considered too much of a good thing or metaphorically speaking “putting too many of your eggs in one basket”.

i think the harm from religious involvement comes when you surrender your all to a religion. i think we have to be careful of that, stand back and make sure we aren’t being too fanatical about our religious devotion.

I agree!

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

Featherina wrote:

And there are too many girls and women with eating disorders because of the pressure to be perfect, or to “stuff” feelings.

Well, it’s not just women either. I have never felt handsome/attractive and am always puzzled when women display an interest in me. My body image is terrible, I am far too overweight.

By the way, I think I have suffered from depression on and off throughout my entire life. In the church, and out of it. Living the Word of Wisdom has helped flatten out the cycles a bit, although I do still suffer particularly during the winter, from lack of sunlight.

Thanks for clarifying that, SamBee.

Men struggle too… to their detriment often more silently, which is probably why we tend to forget that.

Personally, I think men tend to look better with a little extra “meat on the bones.” 🙂

I’ve also struggled with depression.

I can see how it can be a vicious cycle & if it gets too far, it can affect us physiologically.

A couple of things that help me: is forcing myself (whether I feel like it or not) to get things done, go for a walk and talk with people.

Why do you think you’ve suffered from depression so often?

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

… Maybe in an ideal world most people wouldn’t rely too much on anything like this to alter their mood but it seems like too many people want instant gratification and shortcuts to feel better ASAP to realistically expect to be able to impose some form of deprivation without having some of them try to compensate for it another way that will not always be an improvement overall.

“Instant gratification” – I think you nailed it there.

Quote:

… Personally I don’t see the Church going away or changing much any time soon so I try not to let it bother me too much even though I think the Church deserves a significant amount of blame for making many people more depressed than they would be otherwise.

I like how you put that.

Getting upset about it won’t help, except if we’re going to do something about it…

The last couple of years, 2 family members and 1 neighbor (& another neighbor’s brother) have commit suicide.

I’ve struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts too… so I feel the need to DO something… to try to correct thinking to be more healthy & healing.

I don’t think it’s just the LDS church’s distorted teachings… it’s many religions’.

I read that it’s estimated that up to 80% of mental illnesses are rooted in misunderstandings of Judaic or Christian doctrines.

The bible has been worded specifically to keep people submissive – with fear & shame – so the powers that be can continue their power.

Then you get tradition… no-brainer habits that go UNquestioned generation after generation.

I think it comes down to taking responsibility for our mental & spiritual health by reevaluating EVERYTHING!

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I read that it’s estimated that up to 80% of mental illnesses are rooted in misunderstandings of Judaic or Christian doctrines.

We disagree there, especially since there are a HUGE numer of cases of “mental illness” among those who don’t believe in any Judeo-Christian doctrines, but I’ll just leave it at that.

Quote:

I think it comes down to taking responsibility for our mental & spiritual health by reevaluating EVERYTHING!

I agree with that completely.

[Anonymous]

The problem is that we don’t know how the statistics from Utah are broken down. I don’t have the actual stats, but lets say Utah is 70% mormon and say 25% of the population is on anti depressants. What if that breaks down to 80% of the non-LDS population and 20% from the LDS. Now that means only about 10% of mormons are on antidepressants, but 66% of the non-mormons. I am sure that is an extreme example, but it shows statistics can be deceiving. Perhaps the depressing thing is not being LDS, but having to live with us!

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Perhaps the depressing thing is not being LDS, but having to live with us!

😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

Thanks for the laugh. I’ll be chuckling about that all day, I’m sure – and sharing it with others with a huge grin.

[Anonymous]

I could see a cultural reason, perhaps. We have so many other “comfort” foods and beverages forbidden, Mormons in Utah may gravitate more towards the fewer remaining outlets for stress, anxiety and depression. There’s no WoW prohibition against taking medicine prescribed by a doctor. So there’s that and … chocolate. Unless people starting hitting the really hard stuff like Diet Coke 😆

I could see the statistics being skewed by only looking at prescription anti-depressants. People in other cultures have: beer, wine, coffee, tea, cigarettes, and to some extent less inhibition against “illegal” drugs like marijuana (or others). I wonder what the study would look like if you combined all forms of psychoactive medicating (and self-medicating)?

I have a feeling that in the end, Mormons probably aren’t all that much different than anyone else. BTW, I couldn’t even find an article that listed the actual numbers — just people telling me things about the numbers. Phrases like “twice the rate” can be very misleading ways to describe differences that look like nothing when you see the numbers. If I put 1 penny in a savings account every year, and my wife puts 3 pennies in a savings account, she is investing at three times the rate I do. Neither of those actual numbers amount to anything meaningful though.

[Anonymous]

I was talking to a friend yesterday who gets money from the government for his mental illness, and he said I was worse than him! He reckoned I was manic depressive. I suspect some kind of autism, but who knows. I have tried to go to the doctor about this, but they perscribed me nothing.

[Anonymous]

Featherina wrote:

…I don’t think it’s just the LDS church’s distorted teachings… it’s many religions’.

I read that it’s estimated that up to 80% of mental illnesses are rooted in misunderstandings of Judaic or Christian doctrines…The bible has been worded specifically to keep people submissive – with fear & shame – so the powers that be can continue their power.

I’m not sure what to think about this idea. For one thing I have heard many psychologists completely disagree with each others’ conclusions so I don’t know if it’s a good idea to read too much into any one mental health study or report. Also, even if this claim is true how many people are classified as mentally ill compared to everyone else (probably less than 15%)? Maybe a small minority react badly to common religious teachings but to the majority that like religion they are mostly comforting and actually make them feel better overall than they would otherwise. Personally I think that even if there was no religion a similar number of people would typically find something else to be depressed or obsessed about in an unhealthy way but if they talk about religious ideas some people will automatically associate their problems primarily with religion.

Brown wrote:

The problem is that we don’t know how the statistics from Utah are broken down. I don’t have the actual stats, but lets say Utah is 70% mormon and say 25% of the population is on anti depressants. What if that breaks down to 80% of the non-LDS population and 20% from the LDS. Now that means only about 10% of mormons are on antidepressants, but 66% of the non-mormons. I am sure that is an extreme example, but it shows statistics can be deceiving. Perhaps the depressing thing is not being LDS, but having to live with us!

That brings up another point to consider in this discussion; what is the effect of Mormonism on all the inactive Church members and non-Mormons in Utah? For example, some suicide rates I saw were reportedly lower than the national average for active Mormons in Utah but they were much higher than average for both non-Mormons and inactive Mormons in Utah. Even if about 60% of the people in Utah are still counted as Mormons the majority of them are not really actively involved practicing Mormons. Maybe some people that would have actually benefitted from going to another church in other states have basically become discouraged, bitter, cynical, or suspicious about religion in general mostly due to their experience with the LDS Church and its members.

Basically I think a relatively high number of people in Utah have ended up being completely disenfranchised or disenchanted when it comes to religion. There is definitely some blatant discrimination and lack of respect for non-Mormons and less faithful Church members that goes on which could easily cause them some additional stress. Also, I think the divorce rates are relatively high for non-Mormons or less faithful Church members that are married to devout Mormons compared to other sub-groups where having almost exactly the same religious beliefs as your spouse isn’t always quite as much of an issue. I could see many people that are normally fairly content and optimistic quickly becoming depressed when faced with real life-changing problems like divorce and/or extreme financial difficulties.

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