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On Love – Quote:A thought transfixed me: for the first time in my life I saw the truth as it is set into song by so many poets, proclaimed as the final wisdom by so many thinkers. The truth — that love is the ultimate and the highest goal to which man can aspire. Then I grasped the meaning of the greatest secret that human poetry and human thought and belief have to impart: The salvation of man is through love and in love. I understood how a man who has nothing left in this world still may know bliss, be it only for a brief moment, in the contemplation of his beloved. In a position of utter desolation, when man cannot express himself in positive action, when his only achievement may consist in enduring his sufferings in the right way — an honorable way — in such a position man can, through loving contemplation of the image he carries of his beloved, achieve fulfillment. For the first time in my life I was able to understand the meaning of the words, “The angels are lost in perpetual contemplation of an infinite glory.”
-Viktor Frankl – Holocaust Survivor
On Suffering –
Quote:If there is meaning in life at all, then there is meaning in suffering.
On Choice –
Quote:We can answer these questions from experience as well as on principle. The experiences of camp life show that man does have a choice of action. There were enough examples, often of a heroic nature, which proved that apathy could be overcome, irritability suppressed. Man can preserve a vestige of spiritual freedom, of independence of mind, even in such terrible conditions of psychic and physical stress.
We who lived, in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms — to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.
And there were always choices to make. Every day, every hour, offered the opportunity to make a decision, a decision which determined whether you would or would not submit to those powers which threatened to rob you of your very self, your inner freedom; which determined whether or not you would become the plaything of circumstance, renouncing freedom and dignity to become molded into the form of the typical inmate.
Quote:Seen from this point of view, the mental reactions of the inmates of a concentration camp must seem more to us than the mere expression of certain physical and sociological conditions. Even though conditions such as lack of sleep, insufficient food and various mental stresses may suggest that the inmates were bound to react in certain ways, in the final analysis it becomes clear that the sort of person the prisoner became was the result of an inner decision, and not the result of camp influences alone. Fundamentally, therefore, any man can, even under such circumstances, decide what shall become of him — mentally and spiritually. He may retain his human dignity even in a concentration camp. Dostoevski said once, “There is only one thing that I dread: not to be worthy of my sufferings.”
I am in a spirit driven mood today. Thanks for letting me hog the page with some thoughts.
I absolutely love Viktor Frankl. One of the things I often think about was his observation that within each of us, there is both good and bad, always. We have to choose the good every choice we make, because the option to choose the bad is always there. He talked about people who had victimized others in the camps who later gave themselves in service to save lives, and how many who had been victimized in the camps later became bitter and didn’t care about others. It was a very astute and poignant observation. Thanks Mom! I loved it. It has been a much better Sunday than last week.
There was a recent Mormon Stories podcast with Carrie Sheffield and she talked about becoming immersed in the philosophy of stoicism (which seems pretty appealing to me). Frankl sounds like he would fit into that genre.
Any other books like Frankl’s that you would recommend? I think i saw you mention some Marcus Aurelius (who was a Stoic as well) on a thread. Any books on him/by him that you recommend?
Sunbelt thanks – Here are a few I have enjoyed. Marcus Aurelius –
This one is a book only on Stoicism application in your life, but it touches back to Aurelius a lot.
http://www.amazon.com/Stoicism-Art-Happiness-challenges-Yourself-ebook/dp/B00E0JYSS2 This is an ebook Marcus Aurelius Meditations
Viktor Frankl –
His most renown work is Man’s Search for Meaning.
I also like this one by Frankl but it is not everyone’s cup of tea.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Doctor-Soul-Psychotherapy-Logotherapy/dp/0394743172 Hawkgrrl – Quote:I absolutely love Viktor Frankl. One of the things I often think about was his observation that within each of us, there is both good and bad, always. We have to choose the good every choice we make, because the option to choose the bad is always there.
Right there with you.
Beautiful quotes, mom3. Love his writing. I tried to read Man’s Search for Meaning and didn’t get it 30 years ago. These quotes above make a lot of sense and help me see what Stephen R Covey was getting at when he quoted Frankl for his first habit — be proactive. There was one quote I didn’t get — not above — about how one should find “meaning in suffering”. He talks about how he was walking toward a work detail, suffering, and how he looked at trees and the sky and indicated he was suffering for his wife, for his children etcetera. Does anyone know what I’m talking about? I think he may have been commenting that when suffering, one must look to the future, and to those who are counting on you to be there, or who you will bless after the suffering is over, but I’m not sure if that’s what he meant.
SD – I do know the part you are referencing. I will give you my take on it, maybe Hawkgrrl can add hers, too. Frankl’s bottom line is message is that at every corner, in every moment/event we have a choice. Often that choice is subtle. He couldn’t escape the camps but early he made a decision that no matter how bad it got, he would perform and live his life with dignity.
The experience he referenced was a way he found good in a horrid situation. He had no idea whether his wife was alive or dead, but he knew that his most profound happiness came from her. Silently he moved his mind into conversation and being alive with her, this kept him from feeling the hate and horror that surrounded him. It kept the best in front of him. The best Frankl believes is Love and the caring human connection.
Those are my interpretations, any other thoughts, anyone?
mom3 wrote:On Choice -We can answer these questions from experience as well as on principle. The experiences of camp life show that man does have a choice of action. There were enough examples, often of a heroic nature, which proved that apathy could be overcome, irritability suppressed. Man can preserve a vestige of spiritual freedom, of independence of mind, even in such terrible conditions of psychic and physical stress.We who lived, in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms — to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.And there were always choices to make. Every day, every hour, offered the opportunity to make a decision, a decision which determined whether you would or would not submit to those powers which threatened to rob you of your very self, your inner freedom; which determined whether or not you would become the plaything of circumstance, renouncing freedom and dignity to become molded into the form of the typical inmate.
First let me say that I admire Viktor and largely agree with what he wrote.
I do not always agree with how we LDS sometimes seem to use his experiences. I have seen this quote used in GC. It has been used to defend what I like to call untethered agency or absolute choice. I have even used this quote myself to counsel with people to the effect that they can choose how other people’s actions effect them. I also had an inspirational poster on the wall that said, “Destiny is not a matter of chance but of choice.”
Now I am a proponent of limited agency. I take my model from a video I saw about making positive choices at each step of the grief process. People did not have the choice to not grieve, or just to be happy – but they did generally have the choice to talk to someone about their pain or not to shut out loved ones. Ironically, I read about the wife of a deceased general authority that was being praised for her ability to put on a happy public face even though she intensly missed her husband and would frequently cry when she was alone. I felt so sad for her at how isolating this “public face” must have been. While to some she may have been handling it well, according to the video on positive grieving choices her choices to go through her feelings alone would actually be a hinderance to the process.
I do not believe that people overcome or rise above their circumstances. They may do amazing things with what little they were given but I believe it would be wrong to insinuate that they were untouched or unphased by the circumstances of their life. I believe that these circumstances still have an influence that each person will carry with them.
Viktor says, “They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms — to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”
Perhaps these “few” were so uncommon because not everyone has the same capacity of resiliency that they possessed.
I am reacting against an extreme interpretation of Viktor’s words. An interpretation that would suggest that everyone/anyone can be happy if only they set their mind to it. I imagine that such is a misrepresentation of Viktors actual position and that he would not endorse an untethered agency or absolute choice model.
I especially love the quote on Love!
:thumbup: Roy wrote:I am reacting against an extreme interpretation of Viktor’s words. An interpretation that would suggest that everyone/anyone can be happy if only they set their mind to it.
I think I bought in a bit to this flawed interpretation. But dealing with a much less than perfect relationship for quite a while, I finally realized that the other person had their mental limits and I had to realize I had a limited ability to deal with their limitations. Once I finally reached that point, the relationship didn’t improve, but I was able to finally have some peace. This peace allowed me to look at the situation more rationally and I stopped trying to fix everything (which was often driving me into depression when I would push for years with no results).
One misinterpretation of Frankl’s work is this notion that we can be “happy” whatever our circumstances. “Choosing our own way” (imo) means exercising our agency to construct meaning for ourselves (not necessarily happiness). In fact, life is somehow less than what it should be without suffering. I sometimes feel that we are too obsessed with achieving happiness even though the BOM talks about “opposition in all things” and the D&C references the value of negative experiences (see D&C 122). Thanks for the inspiration, mom3. It was a good reality check and reminder. Gerald wrote:I sometimes feel that we are too obsessed with achieving happiness even though the BOM talks about “opposition in all things” and the D&C references the value of negative experiences (see D&C 122).
I get your point, Gerald. There is a place for the negative to spice up the experience of life…which is what the Garden of Eden story is about…there is no other way.Gerald wrote:One misinterpretation of Frankl’s work is this notion that we can be “happy” whatever our circumstances. “Choosing our own way” (imo) means exercising our agency to construct meaning for ourselves (not necessarily happiness). In fact, life is somehow less than what it should be without suffering. I sometimes feel that we are too obsessed with achieving happiness even though the BOM talks about “opposition in all things” and the D&C references the value of negative experiences (see D&C 122).
Exactly Gerald! +1
This thread is touching on a topic in the following post. The blog post I linked to is one I have been thinking about a lot since I read it. IMHO, it is an amazing metaphor related to some of the recent threads. http://www.dovesandserpents.org/wp/2014/11/the-rotting-forest-floor-in-our-own-personal-sacred-groves/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.dovesandserpents.org/wp/2014/11/the-rotting-forest-floor-in-our-own-personal-sacred-groves/ Essentially it is the broken branches, the muck and the dirt, the grit and grime of life that can help us grow and flourish. Our trials, our suffering are a part of the natural process. Without it, we grow superficially.
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