Wart Removal : The Gospel Doctrine Manual

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

My most pressing concerns now, in stage 4, are how to help my kids past the stage 3 they are being immersed in at church right now.(which I know is an important step in the process)

I would say rather “equip them for a softer stage 4” which will only come as the time is right for each of them. In Stages 2 and 3 they need a different kind of teaching. They aren’t ready to individuate their faith. They need Mythic-Literal reassurance at Stage 2 and Synthetic-Conventional support at Stage 3. I think Fowler’s stages stages can help us parent better as we identify properly the stage they are in and recognize the underlying cognitive development that they are experiencing.

[Anonymous]

When I teach youth, I’m more interested in them getting a “spiritual” experience than I am about the lesson material. I have learned I can cover a whole bunch of stuff and they walk away retaining hardly any of it.

Then there have been classes where tears are shed, the room is quiet, and the youth are thinking. I remember some of those from my youth, even years later.

I think that is more important than the content. Clearly, material is important to cover doctrine. But at times, I lay aside the manual, and just answer questions the students have on their mind at that time, keeping to answers from the scriptures, and often asking questions back to them instead of dictating my thoughts to them. They need to learn how to think and find answers, not come and be spoon fed.

Quote:

D&C 50:22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

Seeing that we can’t possibly cover all the material inthe outline in one lesson, it seems there are plenty of opportunities for learning every 4 years…but more importantly…there are spiritual opportunities every week…despite the curriculum.

I also find, despite my efforts, some youth just want to come and see friends, and adults too, and don’t have a burning desire to understand things deeply, and just because I want to learn a lot more, doesn’t mean it is the church’s responsibility to create that forum for me. So I have sought that outlet on my own.

[Anonymous]

Thanks all this is a lot of help as I work out this issue 🙄

swimordie

Consider it done, I will start a new thread this evening and we will see where it takes us. We will pay attention to what is appropriate when (I expect that will be a part of the ongoing discussion). Look for it in a thread in your neighborhood 😆

Tom

I absolutely agree. Most teenagers should be in a stage 3 development probably until they are out on their own at least a little bit. The “soft stage four” I think is the key, keep checking up once we are underway to make sure we behave please.

Heber

Yes, yes, yes:

Quote:

but more importantly…there are spiritual opportunities every week…despite the curriculum.

This is why I think that it is important that a youth teacher must be able to bear their testimony because it is in moments like that when you can trigger great moments. Of course it is pretty well impossible to plan for such things, you just do the best that you can in planning as I’ve discussed more thoroughly here: http://youthgd.blogspot.com/2009/08/lesson-preparation-general-guidelines.html and be ready when those moments come to not destroy them by heading on to the next question in the lesson manual. Thanks for your insight, and you are so right, months of going over doctrine and topics can all fade quickly but those moments last for decades, even a lifetime.

[Anonymous]

Bill, I actually posted on this at Mormon Matters but here/s an excerpt. The full post can be found at http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/29/why-do-you-go-to-church/

I was the Gospel Doctrine teacher until about a year and a half ago. I taught every other week, and often spent about 10 hours preparing my lessons. (Ok, I’m one of those weird people who actually likes to teach, and study the scriptures.) I often had videos like “Mysteries of the Bible” which illustrated a specific point of the lesson. Often I had powerpoint slides. When studying Isaiah, I even referenced non-King James Versions of the Bible to help us understand the archaic language. (The Blue Letter Bible website has KJV and about 14 other versions of the Bible.) I stayed on the topic of the lesson, and tried to ask pointed questions to elicit thought.

I frequently got compliments, but apparently my use of materials outside the LDS church made people uncomfortable. I was called into the bishop’s office, and told not to use non-KJV bibles, because “a stake visitor” (who I think was a member of the bishopric) thought it might harm some of the weaker testimonies in the ward. Are you kidding me? I thought Joseph Smith said we were supposed to “study the words of Isaiah”. How can we study it if we can’t even understand what he’s saying? Anyway, I was released soon after this.

So, I was replaced with people who didn’t want the calling (unlike me, who loved the calling), and they practically read the lesson manual, asking all the same questions we’ve all answered 100 times since seminary. So that’s part of the reason I complain, because I care. But I still go to church, because remembering the Savior and the Sacrament are much more important to me than teaching Sunday School. Helping my kids gain a testimony of Jesus Christ, learning Christian ideals, and being a good person is very important to me.

I still watch “Mysteries of the Bible”, read non-KJV bibles, and use the bloggernacle to edify me for my Sunday School lessons. I’ve been known to bring a book to church and read instead of going to Sunday School, and I do find my personal study of much higher quality than Gospel Doctrine. I can already hear some of you saying I should add my insights into the lessons, but I feel I was released for doing that. It seems to me that the bishop would prefer I stay quiet, and he hasn’t mentioned anything about my lack of attendance (he sees me in the clerk’s office, because he doesn’t go to Sunday School either.)

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

My most pressing concerns now, in stage 4, are how to help my kids past the stage 3 they are being immersed in at church right now.(which I know is an important step in the process)

This is a VERY interesting topic. Maybe the new thread will really open it up but I thought I’d mention something here.

I don’t think you CAN help your kids past stage 3. This may be babble, but here’s some of my thoughts.

When it comes to stages…. As we sort of ‘wake up’ and find ourselves seeing the world with our new eyes (these ‘stages’ really come down to ‘worldview’), we see people in stages ‘below’ us, and generally they can’t ‘see’ what we see. We want to wake them up to the newness we now see, or at least prepare them for what they’ll inevitably discover as they mature. We may have all felt this to some degree (my very concrete thinking and lovable brother just does NOT get me.)

Couple of things…. First, yes, Fowler described the stages as being progressive, but most people live and die in a stage 3ish area. Second, much of one’s ability to even grasp the concepts necessary to reach a ‘higher’ stage come from inborn temperament or predisposition, meaning many people can’t progress to a 4 or 5 (at least not in this life, right?). Many, of us, on the other hand, were destined to find ourselves here merely because of our personalities (I think we have a meyers briggs thread already going somewhere). Third, the church is very stage 3, but it takes stage 3’s to run things like this. 4s are too disseminating and 5s too tolerant, passive. If the church wasn’t stage 3, it would melt.

All that comes down to this, in my mind. We are not judged, I believe, on what stage we have reached on earth; rather we are judged simply on how well we forgive and repent, and a person in ANY stage (and in any religion) can become expert at this regardless of how open or blind their worldview may be. Progressing to higher stage does little more, IMO, than increase our capacity for love, for patience, and understanding, wisdom. And these are blessings for our enjoyment, gifts from God, not signs of intelligence or righteousness. And the only huge difference, I think, between a stage 4 and stage 5 person is the 5’s acceptance of this crazy universe and all it’s crazy people no matter where they are, the sort of acceptance that God has for us.

What I’m getting at is that our children or students may never progress to a higher stage, and they don’t necessarily have to. If they do, great, we’ll be there to love them through the difficulty of the process, we’ll be able to tell them that it’s all worth it. If they don’t progress, then great – they may be missing out on some of the enjoyment and wisdom that comes from this sort of growth, but that’s okay. They’ll have plenty of joy/wisdom appropriate for their lives, their mission. The gospel’s call to forgive and repent is still their’s to hear.

This may come across as being super passive (and maybe too passive) but I try to accept the program as it is, warts and all. Didn’t used to. I pray that my students and/or kids will gleen goodness from mormonism, because there’s plenty. And maybe this sort of acceptence is innoculation enough for our children/students, maybe they’ll sense our peace with all things complicated and remember it when (or if) complexity socks them in the face. Maybe not, I don’t know….. I’m still trying to figure all this jazz out, too.

[Anonymous]

Jordon, an excellent post, thanks.

I think that you are right, we are not in the business of dragging our kids kicking and screaming into a crisis of faith, a black night of the soul, just so that we can have some company. The Church is firmly Stage 3, will always be and will always act like everyone else is Stage 3, they really have no other options.

However as the “Preparing” thread develops I think what we will be looking at is the idea that we don’t want our kids blindsided into stage 3 by some sudden “revelation” of the “dirty truths about Mormonism”. Take a look at the thread, see what you think. I think that your insight:

Quote:

Progressing to higher stage does little more, IMO, than increase our capacity for love, for patience, and understanding, wisdom. And these are blessings for our enjoyment, gifts from God, not signs of intelligence or righteousness. And the only huge difference, I think, between a stage 4 and stage 5 person is the 5’s acceptance of this crazy universe and all it’s crazy people no matter where they are, the sort of acceptance that God has for us

is absolutely spot on and well said. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

mormonheretic wrote:

Anyway, I was released soon after this.

So, I was replaced with people who didn’t want the calling (unlike me, who loved the calling)

MH: that’s a tragedy! Very unwise call to not have you imparting your knowledge to people in the ward and your ward is not benefitting from this approach, IMO. I think many times, the leadership reacts to feedback from the group…which is weak leadership IMO. Anyone coming to complain to the bish about your use of outside resources should be challenged to show what material was inappropriate. Make them study it out…make them think…make them present a case for why keeping to KJV is better for everyone’s learning. Not only would they benefit from that exercise, they may just find a little humility in not being able to come up with any good reasons…or on the flip side, there may be good reasons presented that help MH’s learning rather than just telling MH to sit and be quiet…which unfortunately takes away from your motivation to be anxiously engaged.

Oh well…maybe that gives you more time to work on your blog…and I benefit from that! So I’m not complaining!! 😆

[Anonymous]

MH sorry, somehow I missed your post

Well now you’ve got me worried because as I contemplate teaching the Old Testament starting in January I was definitely thinking that one of the better ways to work with some of the knarlier stuff was to bring in other translation’s version that can make a very real difference in interpretation when compared to the KJV. Hmm, I find your situation so outrageous that these little fellows 👿 😈 😡 and 😥 start taking over my emotions.

By the way I had an old uncle, 87 at the time that he told me this, who was fairly cripled up but able to walk but was pretty well deaf and certainly couldn’t hear much in a chapel. He said : “I go to church to show the Lord whose side I am on.” I guess that is as good a reason as any and a beautiful enduring to the end sentiment. It sometimes frightens me how similar all our situations are and I have to conclude that there really is a bias against honest intellectual seeking in the church. It makes me sad.

[Anonymous]

Bill, not every ward is like my ward. I don’t know where you live–hopefully not Utah County or Maricopa County (AZ). I think those have to be the 2 most conservative places I’ve ever been. After I posted that, I had many people tell me they use non-KJV bibles, powerpoint, etc without a problem, so I have to conclude that I live in an overly conservative ward. I know Ray lived in a pretty cool sounding ward. If you’re outside of Utah, I think there is a little more leeway because there just aren’t as many people to fill callings. My ward currently has 700, so there’s plenty to choose from. I could go inactive, and nobody would care.

Heber, I will say that I started a blog as a reaction to getting released, so I guess their loss is your gain. Also Bill, I used to contribute to http://ldssundayschool.org, but now that I don’t teach anymore, I just post whatever I feel like on my own blog instead. There is some interesting Old Testament stuff there, but it isn’t updated very well. Perhaps you could help!

[Anonymous]

HI mormonheritic

I’ve been to your blog and took a look at your Old Testament posts, lots of good stuff there and I do have some interest in working with some of the topics. Practically speaking I won’t be worrying much about the Old Testament till about October/November when I get closer to actually teaching it and its winter and I will have more time to work on stuff like that. But yes, thanks for pointing me that way. I am running my own blog on Youth Gospel Doctrine but it is very straightforward, lesson by lesson posting along with some teaching ideas so it is not an appropriate place for stuff like the Documentary Hypothesis. So keep me in mind. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

I live way outside the high-density Mormon world. They are pleased as punch that I actually show up to teach a lesson, and I even read through it and prepared something in advance I teach EQ.

There is way more material in the lesson manuals than I can ever cover in the 30 minutes or so available to me. We usually get some really heart-felt discussions going. I love that. People know I throw out challenging questions. We do one week each month from a conference talk. I actually said I thought Pres Monson’s story in his talk was stupid (with all due respect and a sheepish smile), but it kind of was. His talk was on how important the Priesthood was, and his story was about a boy being saved from an upset tummy from a rancid egg salad sandwich, so he could win first prize in a cultural parade contest. But that got the class talking about grand epic miracles vs thinking about priesthood responsibility in everyday life. It made for a good lesson.

I guess what I am saying is this — maybe just try doing the lessons your own way. That is what makes lessons GOOD AND INTERESTING. Trust me, people really prefer interesting classes since they are stuck there in the seat anyway.

I am way too free most of the time, for better or worse, but I see it like this — what’s the worst that will happen? I guess you are released. Once I got over caring about that, I have so much more fun.

[Anonymous]

Valoel thanks for that insight.

I agree that the key is to prepare and then put stuff together so that people can actually have a real conversation. And yes, what is the worst that can happen. Hmmm, well being released would be at the easy end, potentially disfellowshiped at the far end depending on whether the Bishop and Stake President decided that telling the kids evolution was logical and OK to run with was too close to heresy. Really, even out in my edge of the boonies (?) it is a concern. Not a big concern but there nevertheless.

[Anonymous]

Disfellowshipping over something like that would mean that multiple apostles over time would have been disciplined. Just saying.

If you were teaching that evolution proves there is no God, or that evolution proves we’re nothing but smart mammals 😮 . . . yeah, I could see it. I could see being released for teaching evolution in a lesson about ordinances for the dead or the Word of Wisdom. That seems like a serious case of nose-thumbing. 🙄

Otherwise, I think we worry too much about stuff that “might” happen.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ray

Intellectually I know that you are absolutely correct and within the context of the rest of the gospel doctrine classes for the D&C I don’t have much concern but coming up in January will be the first time that I have ever taught the Old Testament since I have gone through my decades long crisis and I am sorry to say that I do worry quite a bit. I’ve got a testimony of most of the prophets of the OT, I think they were there, I believe they are historic even but I’m not much attached to the standard, noble, squeeky clean GD manual approach to OT stories and the “moral” we can learn from each of them.

Mind you I think the OT is fantastic as an interesting and spiritual text and that is how I intend to approach it, stick to the actual scriptures, ignore the stories about the stories, and help kids get interested in thoughtful seeking. We’ll see.

[Anonymous]

I taught 1 Nephi 1 & 2 in Seminary this morning, and the majority of the time ended up being spent on how the people who are not the extremes (those in the middle) generally get ignored. They are viewed as the “followers” by those who write the histories, and the leaders rarely want to talk about the followers. We also talked about how none of Lehi’s kids initially believed him on their own – that Laman and Lemuel rebelled, Nephi asked the Lord and Sam believed Nephi. We then discussed how Sam seems to have been a good, sincere, righteous person – who perhaps never “knew” but rather “believed”. He was not a “leader” – so his personal story wasn’t deemed worthy of taking up space on the plates.

I really enjoyed the lesson, and the kids walked away from it thinking about where they fit in those categories – and understanding that it’s OK to be “just” a believer who never gets mentioned in official histories.

All of that was taught from the verses suggested in the manual.

[Author]

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