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Quote:
Elder Orson F. Whitney (1855–1906) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1929: “The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain.”
JS is reported to have said:
Quote:“When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.”
Dande linked to an article/talk by Elder Bednar in another thread. Rather than derail the specific topic of that thread I would like to move some discussion here.
The topic at hand is the promises made to faithful parents of wayward children and how that squares with individual agency. The explanation is essentially that wayward and rebellious children can repent and receive the teachings and ordinances of the gospel – possibly even after death.
Elder Bednar quoted President Foust:
Quote:Mercy will not rob justice, and the sealing power of faithful parents will only claim wayward children upon the condition of their repentance and Christ’s Atonement. Repentant wayward children will enjoy salvation and all the blessings that go with it, but exaltation is much more.
It must be fully earned.The question as to who will be exalted must be left to the Lord in His mercy .
Emphasis mine
If I understand correctly the Atonement of Jesus gives us the resurrection and the opportunity to be forgiven for our sins conditional upon our repentance. The atonement makes possible a learning environment where we can make mistake and learn from the without having those mistakes forever weighing us down. All souls will make mistakes but there is a difference between making a mistake to learn/turn from it and willfully and rebelliously repeating the mistake. Even rebellious souls are heirs of salvation eventually because all will be saved in a kingdom of glory after they bend the knee. It sounds like the wayward children of faithful LDS couples may end up saved in the telestial kingdom. Still, the opportunity for more glory was forever lost and the divine potential squandered.
This seems to be a possible way to bring such contradicting church teachings into alignment – however it also seems to me to rob the power and intent from the JS and Orson F. Whitney quotes?
Does anyone have any context or thoughts to share on the subject? Elder Bednar seems pretty confident. Is his perspective now church doctrine on the matter?
I mentioned this briefly in the other post. Doctrine is not so much a reflection of who God is, but rather who we need Him to be. There are a LOT of gospel contradictions, both in the scriptures and from Church leaders. It is VERY difficult to pin down what is exactly doctrine. God (not as He is, but who we believe Him to be) is a blank canvas, on whom we paint the noblest and most admired, beautiful attributes. He’s a refelection of who we are and what we need. Are you a parent who has wayward children? They are sealed to you, and God will save them all! Are you a child who has abandoned the faith? You must repent, or you cannot be saved! Both beliefs can help a certain set of people to carry on. And both beliefs can be devistating to the wrong set.
If there is a choice between a universalist option and a restrictive option, I will pick the universalist option almost every time. In the case of sealing and wayward children, I believe the concept is extremely important but completely symbolic. I think God essentially sealed the vast majority of his children before humans began to be born here on Earth, symbolized by our concept of the War in Heaven and our acceptance of his plan for us. I see that as applying to “wayward” children of all parents, not just Mormon parents.
Frankly, I don’t worry about waywardness with my children at all. I worry about if they become . . . (eliminate all the colorful descriptors that come to mind) . . . jerks and/or lousy parents. As long as they are doing the best they can do, I’m cool with that – and I believe God is, as well.
dande48 wrote:
Doctrine is not so much a reflection of who God is, but rather who we need Him to be.
This is not something most faithful members would feel comfortable with…because it makes it seem we can justify whatever we want.But it seems to be what we do. Maybe with good intentions, but church leaders seem to interpret things from their point of view to make it useful.
dande48 wrote:
There are a LOT of gospel contradictions
especially with what we think about the next life and eternal sealings we hope for, but the various mortal circumstances we find ourselves presented with, many not of our choice or control. It feels like it falls apart and doesn’t make sense in many situations (not universal, but restrictive as Ray said) and therefore defaults to….Quote:It will all get worked out in the hereafter…just focus on being a good person and have faith (aka… don’t worry about it.)
We want a hopeful message…like temple work for the dead gives everyone the fair chance to choose, or sealing of parents helps keep children connected and protected.
But human nature moves to want to do as little as possible to get what we want…so we would love to do nothing and have mercy and sealing just give us all the blessings without having to work for them.
I don’t feel like we really know one way or the other.
I don’t find satisfactory teachings from the church on heaven or the things we hope for literally, but are not of this world (eternity and eternal families). I think the church tries to be relevant by reminding us we don’t get a free lunch…so we need to work and there are real consequences for those who aren’t faithful.
Perhaps they have to say that. Because they don’t know how else to motivate us to continue to try to be god-like if all the doctrines start contradicting and falling apart upon deep examination.
Perhaps we have to get to the point we no longer rely on the arm of flesh to make sense of things. Take Bednar with a grain of salt, and then seek personal revelation on the matter. Seek the things that point towards love…and as President Kimball used to say…
Quote:If you are going to err, err on the side of mercy.
Just googling this topic a bit…I came across this post from 2005: President Kimball and his inactive sonIt strikes me that a call to repentance is something the faithful feel is necessary (because of their strong convictions), but the receiver rarely feels loved from it. It adds to the divide.
Love and acceptance has the best way to bring the “wayward” child back. Love, acceptance, validation, example, prayer, faith.
Alma the younger is an example used often. The father prayed, the son changed his heart by his experiences of knowing god personally.
Love, not being high and mighty or sealed by some power, is what seals families together.Perhaps the sealing power of the temple is symbolic for how we love others with hope, and church statements and teachings work if taken symbolically as we journey. Parents must also work on how to love even if disapproving or disagreeing, and that is part of the path to godliness. Love others, even when they think differently.
I keep thinking of my silver-haired Pathways peer and her 2 grown up children. She went back to school to get a Family History certificate, and sometimes gets carried away doing family history research. She has made comments in the car about how she is estranged from her children because she doesn’t know how to talk to them instead of talking at/preaching at them – and they make comments to that effect periodically as well. The paradox she faces is that she feels justified in preaching at them to discharge one of her parental responsibilities, but she feels sorrow/sadness because she doesn’t have a good relationship with them. It makes my heart ache because I can relate to both generations and their points of view.
Amy, that’s a great example of why I think it is part of “their” journey. Finding how to do it is a learning process, or when to do it, or if it is better sometimes to not do it and hold your tongue. As a parent, you learn different approaches work for different kids, at different times in their life. The hard part is that the church gives those with stewardship (leaders or parents) a feeling it is their obligation to do it.
Sometimes it works out well. Sometimes it is offensive. There is no universal solution. You have to work it out as a family, for all involved, kids and parents.
Next month I have a speaking assignment on family history. I know, why did I accept such an assignment when I dislike FH so much? It’s complicated, but it’s not going to be a traditional talk by any means. The central theme will be this idea that we’re all sealed together as on big family and that sealing power is love. I appreciate the insights here so far. Amy, I think that happens with many, many Mormon parents and it’s very sad. Off the top of my head I could name at least a half dozen families in my own ward with this issue. The story of the prodigal son says nothing about the father seeking after the lost son or calling him to repentance
Quote:But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
DarkJedi wrote:
The story of the prodigal son says nothing about the father seeking after the lost son or calling him to repentance
What a great point!
yet…makes you wonder…why did the prodigal son avoid for so long coming home? Why did he feel so guilty, so ashamed, and so worried about what his father would do?
Was it what his father actually did and said to him, or what he feared his father would say or do?
Did he have to get so desperate, he was willing to risk it because he couldn’t go on with the way he was doing it?
I love how his father didn’t lecture him when he returned…he just celebrated.
DJ, as you prepare for your talk…can you answer this question I have come to ponder:
– Why do we need to do Family History work? Won’t it all get figured out in the next life one way or another? What exactly are we trying to do?
Heber13 wrote:yet…makes you wonder…why did the prodigal son avoid for so long coming home? Why did he feel so guilty, so ashamed, and so worried about what his father would do?
Was it what his father actually did and said to him, or what he feared his father would say or do?
Did he have to get so desperate, he was willing to risk it because he couldn’t go on with the way he was doing it?I love how his father didn’t lecture him when he returned…he just celebrated.
(emphasis added)
Quote:And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! (emphasis added)
I’m not sure what he feared (keeping in mind it is a fictitious story) but he did think he had sinned and was willing to take the punishment for that. If I had to pick one passage of scripture to leave for the world when they could have no other scripture it would be this story because it encompasses the whole gospel IMO.
Quote:DJ, as you prepare for your talk…can you answer this question I have come to ponder:
– Why do we need to do Family History work? Won’t it all get figured out in the next life one way or another? What exactly are we trying to do?
Those might be exactly the questions I am trying to avoid answering because I don’t know the answers.
😯 I’m not sure I want to know the answers. I am at best agnostic about family history, but I do hope and believe that we can be joined together as a family of God’s children eternally.Heber13 wrote:
It strikes me that a call to repentance is something the faithful feel is necessary (because of their strong convictions), but the receiver rarely feels loved from it. It adds to the divide.
Because it places people on unequal footing. It elevates one person above another. It can be hard to call someone to repentance without inadvertantly conveying the message that “I know better than you” or “I am better than you.” It’s hard to feel loved in an environment where you’re always made to feel inadequate or as if you are doing something wrong.
– – – – – – – – – –
I feel like a part of the culture of the church is viewing people’s relationship with the
churchas a referendum on their relationship with god. Active, TR holding, calling magnifier? CK material. Inactive or worse yet, conscientiously left the church? You’ve blown your chance. Doctrine and Covenants 76 has a whole section dedicated with trying to untangle the mess of all the fears we created when we placed rules around governing where we go in the afterlife and why. I think this is no different. Parents become distraught because they feel like they are losing their children for eternity simply because their relationship with a church doesn’t fit the prescribed mold. So distraught that we then had to address the new fears that were created when we feel our children are lost to us… that the sealing power will ensure we don’t lose them for forever.
Wrangling over what our relationship will be like in the eternities can interfere with our ability to have relationships right now. Will god separate us from a loved one in heaven or will our own judgments push them away?
DarkJedi wrote:
Quote:DJ, as you prepare for your talk…can you answer this question I have come to ponder:
– Why do we need to do Family History work? Won’t it all get figured out in the next life one way or another? What exactly are we trying to do?
Those might be exactly the questions I am trying to avoid answering because I don’t know the answers.
😯 I’m not sure I want to know the answers. I am at best agnostic about family history, but I do hope and believe that we can be joined together as a family of God’s children eternally.
I came to a greater peace with family history when I realized that the flavor practiced by the LDS faith was part of the rituals designed to connect us both to our ancestors and to future generations.
That is what we are trying to do – involve ourselves in efforts to connect ourselves to other generations – both in this life, and as preparation for the life to come.I see traces of this in the 10 commandments “Thou Shalt Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother”, and in the oft-quoted Malachi scriptures and partly in the focus on temple work. Others have incense sticks and shrines and we have PAF, family history centers, and temples. Some of us do family history by recording stories of our ancestors and passing them onto the next generation. Others take a DNA test and trace their physical ancestry elsewhere. I compiled a physical/mental health chart documenting instances (and supposed instances) of depression, heart murmurs, diabetics, and alcoholism as far back as I could so that my siblings and those in the generations after me will have the information be able to trace their issues back successfully. I interviewed both of my parents, and my living grandfather for it so far. I think that long-term care of elderly parents also falls into family history. If you take the broader view, a case could be made that whenever we look out for those before us or after us, we are working on family history. This will include protecting our elderly and young from abuse and volunteering for the Big Brother/Big Sister or other programs.
It also makes the question “What are you doing about family history” both easier to swallow and more expansive
😆 No doubt Amy there is a great deal of dogma associated with family history and temple stuff. More specifically, it is the dogma I am trying to avoid. AmyJ wrote:
I came to a greater peace with family history when I realized that the flavor practiced by the LDS faith was part of the rituals designed to connect us both to our ancestors and to future generations.That is what we are trying to do – involve ourselves in efforts to connect ourselves to other generations – both in this life, and as preparation for the life to come.I see traces of this in the 10 commandments “Thou Shalt Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother”, and in the oft-quoted Malachi scriptures and partly in the focus on temple work.
The rituals can help connect us but I believe a focus on the rituals can create a trap, the belief that we aren’t connected unless we’re doing the rituals.
That’s the current I feel I’m constantly swimming against at church. The rituals are
avehicle, not thevehicle and not the end goal. Absolutely, NIbbler! I have authority issues regarding the temple and temple work right now. I am also pretty agnostic about the afterlife as well.
These 2 statements translated into a lot of cognitive dissonance regarding the traditional family history mindset and created an opportunity for me to divorce myself from the tribe. I chose to expand my definition of family history to include pertinent parts that did not trigger cognitive dissonance or sever myself from the tribe. I know a lot of people had different paths and different narratives – but this what worked for me the best so far.
So instead of the standard family history sedan, I ended up with an expanded human family school bus. It bears resemblance and has similar functions to the original model, but has more seating and goes slower. At the end of the day, the hope is that it will get the job done in terms of transportation. Also, most people do not mess with big vehicle drivers who appear to driving unsteadily because they do not want to be smushed by the bigger vehicle. I know of what I speak because I drove a 15 passenger van in my early twenties – and PEOPLE GOT OUT OF THE WAY of my van
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