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TinSolder wrote:
That brings an interesting question to my mind. Since I’m not sealed to my earthly father, I wonder how else I’m related to him. Anyone who’s used the “find relatives around you” feature knows it’s very common to be ~8-12th cousins with people, but I don’t know how I could search for a separate connection to my dad other than “father.”
If you go into relativefinder.org and go to the tab: Connect , you will see another tab: with deceased person.
You enter the 7 digit/character alpha &/or number of the dead person (your Father), it will show you the relationship to you.
It is referred to as the PID.
Minyan Man wrote:
This is my personal opinion: at some point through our journey through eternity. all of us will be sealed together in one big family.
This in a nutshell is what I alluded to in my earlier post. I also believe we will all be sealed together in one huge “family” in the “end” (understanding of course that eternity has no end). I think that’s the whole point of the Abrahamic Covenant. It’s more complicated than that in my mind and thus difficult for me to explain – but I’m not sure it works like most people think it does.
TinSoldier wrote:
I can really relate to most of what you said. I think you did a good job of spelling it all out. Heaven knows I’ve gone to church for various “wrong” reasons at times, from knowing I’ll have to ask the bishop for financial assistance, to being worried about making some sort of impression by simply showing up. Even though I’m not in an area where many of my neighbors are members, we have an older missionary couple who lives next door in a rental house and I admit to feeling a little self-conscious if I don’t attend just because of worry about them being judgemental. And yes, they can do that sort of thing.By that definition I think almost everybody at church is probably there for the “wrong” reason. I have contemplated that before as I’ve looked around my own small ward – “Why is she really here? She clearly doesn’t get it.” I don’t think that’s judgmental (but I’m sure it could be construed as such), it’s just me trying to figure out motivations.
Quote:I’ve had a variable relationship with the church. When I was a teenager, I was often the quorum leader and active helping organize stake youth activities. That changed when I went on my mission. It took nearly 3/4 of my mission before I was made a senior companion. Eventually it got me pretty discouraged and I contacted the mission president to ask if there was some reason for that. He said he hadn’t realized my situation and there wasn’t any particular reason I was still a junior. I finally became a senior companion for a few months, then a “joint” companion for the last month or two with another elder who was going home at the same time as me. Then when I got married and started a family, I was assigned to the nursery. Over the net ten years, when with moves or changing boundaries I was in about six different wards or branches, I was constantly assigned to the nursery almost as soon as I got into the ward. It was challenging because I never had a chance to get to know anyone. I could attend every Sunday and be in a ward for a couple of years, and still have people come up to me before church and ask if I was visiting because most members never saw me and I didn’t get out of the nursery after church until most of them were gone. After that, for other reasons as well, my activity level dropped and I didn’t go at all for a few years. After I split with my ex and got to know MJ as she was becoming a member I attended much more for several years, but now I’m pulling back again.
Interesting. I think for the most part the idea of senior/junior companion has gone by the wayside in most missions these days. None of my three sons really talked about that idea, and one even laughed at me one time when I mentioned it. Things like trainer, district leader and zone leader still seem to carry some weight though and one of my sons was concerned that he wasn’t a district leader as quickly as some others. Honestly I don’t think God cares, but when I was a missionary I didn’t understand that either.
I kind of aspire to nursery teacher, actually (that’s 2 kids in my ward). I have never been, but I was in a ward where I had been called directly in to Primary after moving there and didn’t get much association with the men in the ward (I was the only male in Primary, this was a long time ago). I didn’t really forge any male bonds there because I wasn’t around them. I ended up being inactive for a few months (I was also a YSA then) and when I came back was the first time I turned down a calling – they were going to call me to Primary again. I told them no and I told them why, that I needed adult interactions. I ended up being SSP.
Interesting little story that just happened last Sunday. I am an introvert and I don’t go to church to socialize. That doesn’t mean I’m rude or anything, I do talk to people, some of which I have known for 30 years. But I prefer to sit on the back bench and blend in. That said, I also have a calling that at times is visible and that takes me to other wards. I had missed three consecutive Sundays in my own ward before last Sunday. So, I’m sitting there in our usual place and my wife was off socializing (she does go to church to socialize). A missionary, who I recognize, came over and shook my hand and asked if I were a visitor. I got a huge chuckle out of it. I should have played with him and told him I was interested in the church or something.
Sometimes I’m a little blunt, and sometimes I think things just need saying. I do disagree with your bishop although as someone already pointed out more than 99% of the time two people of the opposite sex living together are doing the do. But that’s not the only thing keeping you from going to the temple. There are other issues as well, including motivation. You’re not even motivated to going to Sunday meetings, what would your motivation be for going to the temple when marriage isn’t even actually on the table? Off the top of my head in addition to chastity concerns (even though that may not be a real concern) you haven’t been attending church (which is one of the questions) and it’s pretty unlikely you’re paying tithing (another biggie). This isn’t about your bishop or the temple – it’s about you. What do you really want other than what you can’t have?
DarkJedi wrote:
Sometimes I’m a little blunt, and sometimes I think things just need saying. I do disagree with your bishop although as someone already pointed out more than 99% of the time two people of the opposite sex living together are doing the do. But that’s not the only thing keeping you from going to the temple. There are other issues as well, including motivation. You’re not even motivated to going to Sunday meetings, what would your motivation be for going to the temple when marriage isn’t even actually on the table? Off the top of my head in addition to chastity concerns (even though that may not be a real concern) you haven’t been attending church (which is one of the questions) and it’s pretty unlikely you’re paying tithing (another biggie). This isn’t about your bishop or the temple – it’s about you. What do you really want other than what you can’t have?
I don’t mind you bluntness and there’s some truth is what you say. I know good and well what people assume about our living situation. I imagine I’d probably be inclined to do the same if I wasn’t in the middle of it. All I can say is that I know the truth of the situation. Given my medical situation, with damaged nerves (the ones that make erections possible) from my surgery at the beginning of our relationship, the radiation treatments that caused more damage there, or the hormone blocker injections for the past nine years, sex is firmly out of the picture.As for tithing, this is likely to be an area where some will disagree with me. My only income is SSDI, which are benefits I receive from contributions I made for many years from income on which I paid tithing. If I live a sufficient number of years I may exceed my contributions someday, but in the meantime I feel the modest benefit I receive is from money on which I have already tithed. I have made it a matter of prayer and study and I”m comfortable with my decision. I know I am not the only one who has reached this decision.
Last year I attended church more often than not. The past couple of weeks I haven’t been there, but that has had more to do with how well I felt, or not, than anything else. I freely admit I feel pretty discouraged at times about not being able to fully participate in the church and receive it’s blessings. It feels like I’ve practically been disfellowshipped, other than being able to take sacrament. Since I have stopped working I’ve spent a lot of time working on genealogy which I enjoy, but it also drills home the fact that it’s likely I’ll never be able to go to the temple again to do their work. For starters, my father had a short marriage during WW2 and I’d like to have him sealed to his former wife, especially since he can’t be sealed to my mother. There are a number of others I’d really like to do myself if I can.
Perhaps my issues could go away with a different bishop, or maybe not, but there’s no telling whether or not I’ll still be around. Well, not all of my issues at church. There will still be judgemental attitudes from some of the other members. As a footnote, I know others are in similar situations. For example, a couple of years ago MJ said another woman in Relief Society admitted her ex was in need of help and moved in with her and her husband.
I misunderstood and thought you had been inactive for a longer period of time. I was just kind of going through the questions in my head and recognizing that the chastity thing might not be the only one you couldn’t answer. My stance has always been if someone says yes they are a full tithe payer then they are a full tithe payer, period. That probably extends to all the other questions as well, and that’s why I disagree with your bishop (IOW, if you say you live the law of chastity and he has no hard evidence that that isn’t true or the other half is saying the opposite, then you live the law of chastity). Even church attendance can be subject to the idea because it is possible you regularly attend a different ward for whatever reason, although that’s more verifiable by calling the other bishop (and I know bishops who do such things). Even with all that and even if you can answer all the questions appropriately, the bishop is not stopping you from getting married because you’re not at that point. You can’t get married because marriage is not currently an option because of other circumstances. If you want a TR for some other reason, yes, the bishop could be standing in your way and is wrong – leadership roulette.
There mightbe an interesting development going on this week. MJ’s daughter (27 y/o) was assaulted by her boyfriend. Since then MJ’s “ex” has been staying at her apartment. There’s a possibility that he might not really live here again, but I’m not holding my breath yet. I am so sorry to hear about MJ’s daughter. That is truly terrible news. 😥 I guess I can’t comment confidently on the sealing aspect of it — it’s something someone in the “knowing hierarchy” of the church would have to answer definitively. But taking the perspective of a leader with an agenda to further the “aims” of the church. I wouldn’t give a definitive answer in this life — as I would not want to enable co-habitation. I wouldn’t want to lead people to think they can cohabit in this life and then take care of it in the next through a sealing then. I would want to answer in a way that closes the loop hole to encourage by-the-book living the gospel in this life. It is certainly a question that might be run up the ladder though. I might allow it after they died in hopes there was an opportunity for further repentance then.
I would very much, perhaps in the presence of a lawyer and witnesses in some kind of credible document, write out my wishes to be sealed in the temple after death of us both however. I would make sure someone we trust in this life has both originals, and I would probably ask my Bishop to meet with me as I got close to the end — to share what I believe and give him my document expressing my wishes after death. I would make it as easy as possible for my Bishop to know what my desires are, whether he, or in the case of after death probably, the temple president, know what my desires are after death. And those of G. Who knows what they will do with it.
The new testament seems to say that men and women are not married in heaven, however. It seems like it needs to happen in this life if you take the NT literally.
But my perspective is this — temporal matters matter, and if the situation of living together works, particularly since celebacy is the case, I would do what is necessary to survive financially. I would also leave the other person in the best state if I pass first. I also believe, rightly or wrongly, that God takes a LONG VIEW of our lives. The whole landcape is considered and not just what he sees at death.
He considers these albeit messy and uncertain situations, and as the scriptures say, in the end we will agree that his judgments are just. What is considered just by the person being judged is usually far more lenient than what the judge considers just if left to his own devices. I know that from being a teacher of adults all my life. So I think God errs on the side of leniency.
I think/hope God will look at your whole situation and move forward with compassion. I feel for your situation.
I want to thank you for opening up my mind to the idea that people not married in this life at all might be sealed in the next life. Very interesting situation. Best to leave a clear, paper trail for after you have moved on to a better place to facilitate making it happen.
Like I said earlier in this thread, I have only heard of one case where a couple was sealed when they weren’t married in this life. We watched a movie a year or so ago about one of the handcart companies that had a lot of trials on their journey. I can’t recall the name of the film or which company it was. The couple had agreed to wait until they arrived in Utah to get married for some reason, but the man died during the trip. At the end of the movie it said that much later, I think in the 1990’s, one of the general authorities heard about the story and approved them being sealed together. I’d be happy to put things in writing to request we be sealed, but I’m not sure who to give that to. In the wake of a messy divorce, I don’t have a good relationship with most of my kids and the one I do get along with is no longer interested at all in the church. I learned the hard way that just because I refuse to bad-mouth my ex to the kids, it doesn’t mean my ex will do the same thing. From what I’ve heard, she had no filter when it came to running me down to the kids and it obviously had an effect. I thought it was interesting that one of my aunts brought up having us sealed after we are gone, a couple of months ago. I had never discussed it with her, but she knows our situation. The thing is, she’s in her 80s and not in the best of health, so I am skeptical she’ll be around or in shape to follow through with that. I guess I could still leave a document with her and hope that at least one of her kids, my cousins, would pursue it. I certainly can’t rely on my bishop, from his attitude on the subject I believe he would firmly object. I do know my home teacher/minister (I still don’t have the terminology down since they changed it) and one other friend in the ward who might assist with something like that. MJ is the only member in her family and to some extent they’ve generally been anti.
Like you, I have to believe the Heavenly Father has compassion and leniency with how he sort out some of the messy situations we see here on earth, such as to whom my father can be sealed since he couldn’t with my mother, or for that matter anyone who doesn’t marry at all.
I have a suggestion for you. Get married in a civil ceremony and then you won’t be breaking any asinine rules. Gomezaddams51 wrote:
I have a suggestion for you. Get married in a civil ceremony and then you won’t be breaking any asinine rules.
The church’s rules aren’t the only considerations in this case. Tinsoldier stated in one of the earlier posts that there are other considerations involving finances, loss of income, etc.
DarkJedi wrote:
Gomezaddams51 wrote:
I have a suggestion for you. Get married in a civil ceremony and then you won’t be breaking any asinine rules.
The church’s rules aren’t the only considerations in this case. Tinsoldier stated in one of the earlier posts that there are other considerations involving finances, loss of income, etc.
Exactly. Foremost among the problems is, as I said earlier, if we marry then she will lose access to benefits that would support her after I’m gone. How responsible would it be for me to insist we marry if it meant that? Seems to me like that would be immoral.I’ve been reading through this thread for the first time, and appreciate you sharing your story and your trials you have and the decisions to make. I think there is a point where our unique situations don’t always fit into the rules for society or the church. We have to be careful we aren’t compromising our integrity, but we also are given trials to help challenge us and help us focus on what is truly important, and what our highest values are. Not just black and white, good or bad, sin or obedience. But shades of gray that make us think of how we want to choose to become the best person we can, and to please our Heavenly Father with our ability to choose among difficult choices, even sometimes the choices others won’t agree with. We can’t rely on validation from others or the bishop to decide what is right for us.
I hope that is helpful and not something that is off-putting. You are seeking guidance from great people, as you should. That is wise to seek guidance. But it isn’t your bishop’s life to live or deal with.
I went through tough circumstances with my divorce, and was disappointed with things some people told me, and had to realize it is OK to decide for myself, get my own revelations, seek approval from God, not others. It isn’t always easy, but it sometimes is the way before us.
Christ was teaching us to choose above rules that are before us, and seeking the more important thigns in our situation when he taught:
Quote:Mark 2
23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
I think God will help you feel in your heart for your own situation what is right for you. I feel like our gospel teaches us that there are ways to continue temple blessings and other things after this life. It gets worked out. Most important is keeping our hearts pure and seeking God’s will.
We are supposed to find our joy in this life and be wise with our choices. We should not live in fear of whether others approve or not. If we are hungry on the sabbath, we should eat. God understands the pure in heart.
Good luck. I’m glad you are here to share your story. Thanks!
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