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OK, maybe I’m being oversensitive, maybe I’m on point, but I’m seeing patterns. First is the way the church gets between converts and their non-member families over temple marriage.
Second, the fact that Roy’s Bishop didn’t want a parent present during his son’s baptismal interview.
Third, Bpric members have pumped my wife for information about me when my commitment waned. She knew I didn’t want anything shared (I was express about that), but she spilled the beans anyway. And further the Bpric member told a story about how when he was not active, his wife got him active by threatening to divorce him if he didn’t!
Third, the gay couple/child disavowal policy.
Fourth, the fact that my daughter had an interview with our Bishop yesterday. Before the interview I indicated she wasn’t to talk about family situation, habits, or ideas as they related to the church — only her own situation. They should check with us if they want answers to any questions about parental attitudes or habits directly. My daughter comes home and tells me she didn’t talk about our family, just how things were going in her life.
Today, my wife tells me she’s been asked to take a calling by the Bishop. That the Bishop had a discussion with my daughter last night about what it would take to get the parents back into the Ward and serving again. Told my daughter not to share anything. He recommended callings for my daughter to consider for her parents. My daughter gave input, ad then was sworn to secrecy about the conversation until the Bprc could talk to the parents about the potential callings.
Frankly, I’m a bit ticked at this right now. It may seem like a minor issue, but the history bothers me. It seems the church leaders have no compunction about getting between family members when there isn’t even commitment toward the church in those families. I feel violated, and have many times.
What are your thoughts??
The Bishop was WAY out of line. I’m sure it has happened with other Bishops, somewhere, but no Bishop whom I have known to any degree of familiarity (and there have been quite a few) would do that.
It is wrong. Dead wrong. I would speak with my Stake President about it if I heard of it happening in any ward in our stake.
This is exactly the problem I have with the church. They sneak around even when you ask them not too. this whole issue is way out of line putting wedges between family members , they seem to go out of their way to do it. I have always been present for my kids interviews because I demanded it , no one has the right to interview a child alone just way too much at stake!! I worked in law enforcement years ago and I know what could happen and am not willing to take a chance. I thought I was on my way back to being active in the church but with all the stuff that has gone on this past weekend with the new church policy etc etc etc I’m not so sure I even want to be associated with this church !! Sorry this happened, SD. I agree the bishop is out of line. I don’t blame your daughter, she was being pressured by an adult authority figure. You could certainly talk to your SP (I don’t know how well you know him and what not, but I wouldn’t have any high expectations). I also wouldn’t shy away from confronting the bishop (after you’ve cooled down, of course). Because this kind of stuff is related to church culture he may not even realize how offensive it is, and if he really wants to get people like you and me back perhaps he should think about that. This situation–this wedge that you had happen–does fit a pattern in a lot of ways. When I was on my mission, we were expressly taught to be fearless, bold, never apologize for bringing the gospel of JC to people, and so forth. What that translated into was rude, pushy, insensitive to people and situations–as perceived by those outside the faith. I remember marching up in the middle of family gatherings at people’s homes, knocking on the door, and offering to bring the gospel to these people. The timing was utterly ludicrous, I knew we were making a horrible impression as to manners, but it was the policy: our job was to interrupt people and save their soul. When questioned about why we were like this, our response was always about how much we love people, and how the gospel of JC would never be convenient for everyone–and that we had an overwhelming desire to save their souls. Just so you know, I’m not really exaggerating that much here…not much if any at all.
There is a general attitude, IMHO, that when it comes to “saving souls”, LDS people feel like they can disregard the feelings and intentions of others. The general idea is this: “If they knew what was at stake, they would run to adopt what we have to share”; and, “they don’t know what they are doing, so we can’t give up–we have to do whatever it takes to save their souls.”
I have marveled for years about this. I have neighbors, for example, who don’t want to be part of the church. They don’t want it….period. But, the church still sends out HT to them. And, rather than share with them HOW to get removed from the church, we like to just leave them on the rolls of the church BECAUSE “if they knew what was at stake, they would come back.”
I see this all the same. And using someones family member, even against the wishes of the parents, seems completely in character with all kinds of things i’ve seen. This is a big problem out there.
I’m glad there seems to be unaniminity that the Bishop was out of line. I tried to talk to my daughter about it — about how loyalty should be to the family first. But she got sort of huffy about it and said “I was only following the counsel of my Bishop” — which only underscored what I’m saying here. I did not want to interfere with my relationship with my daughter by pressing the issue, but I felt pushed aside after the conversation. Clearly, she believes instructions from her Bishop eclipse instructions from her parents — even when those instructions are about preserving her parents personal privacy.
I thought about going to the Stake President, but I have a few concerns about that.
a) My wife is starting to attend our old Ward again now that he is Bishop. This will be good for our family, particularly since our building is FINALLY getting ready for occupancy after a few years of sitting dormant. I was planning to go back in some capacity, and that would also be good for my son and daughter. I don’t want to make waves in that situation by being a disturber.
b) This Bishop is doing a good job generally, and I like the guy. He’s a bit inexperienced as a Bishop, but a successful, serial entrepreneur. I have those genes and I know that part of being that way is making mistakes. I want to simply forgive him and help him learn.
c) They want me to take on this massive service project involving multiple stakes. I will probably meet with him and tell him that I can’t do it, but at the same time, gently explain my perspective on the role of the church in “promoting unity in families”. Kindly, but openly. This might provide him with the learning in a “safe” environment as from recent reports from my daughter and wife, he respects me on a number of different levels. As I do him….I think we could have that conversation.
I do appreciate the support here.
I agree that it was out of line. As you have surmised, this kind of boundary crossing is not that uncommon in our culture. I would probably let it go considering that he is a good guy and good bishop otherwise that might make a few mistakes.
SilentDawning wrote:Second, the fact that Roy’s Bishop didn’t want a parent present during his son’s baptismal interview.
My own bishop is also a good guy. He had the executive clerk apologize when he was getting militantly pushy about getting my TR renewed. He has permitted me to baptize my children even though I am not “temple worthy”. Every time I meet with him he extends the invitation for me to start paying tithing again and to take my wife to the temple. To which I respond with something like, “Thank you, I appreciate the invite.” and “She would really like that.” or “That would be really good for us.”
He could employ the commitment pattern to commit me to pay by a certain date or otherwise be more hardnosed and rigid. He could express frustration or belittle me for not making more progress but he does not.
As far as leadership roulette goes, I hope my bishop NEVER gets released.
I firmly believe the bishop has the intent of helping your family. From his point of view, his ways are what he thinks he can do. His weaknesses may be the inability to see there are better ways to accomplish what you truly need from him.
I wonder what you might be able to do to help him see clearer what your needs are. Perhaps letting him know how grateful you are your family is close enough with each other to tell each other what the bishop says to them behind closed doors…because family comes before church…always.
Leave it at that and he’ll see he’s not doing it right.
If he really wants to know how to get your daughters parents back to serving in the church again…it will be by leaders not playing silly games.
If you help him see clearer, you might be able to save another family from feeling how you feel.
SilentDawning: This is a tough one. You are saying family first, but your daughter’s entire life she has heard lessons about the importance of putting the church first. Lessons that discuss church before family, and stories about people who left their families behind in order to join the church. People who sacrificed and left their families behind in order to serve the church. Talks about how important it is to marry within the church and in the temple .. That it is better to never marry and never have the experiences of intimacy, love, marriage, or children, and to live and die alone, rather than to marry outside the faith.
Your daughter has been taught her entire life to put church and church authority first. You are the lone voice telling her to put family first. You also telling her to keep family secrets. Modern kids are told that any adult who tells you to keep a secret is wrong.
Your daughter is following what she was taught her entire life. The bishop took full advantage of the cultural situation and used it to his advantage. Shame on him.
Thanks everyone — I tried to talk to my daughter today about it. It didn’t go very well. She doesn’t see my point, and had this look on her face as though she was tolerating everything I was saying. I really pulled out the stops to help her see that she needs to be loyal to her family members — that in five years, the people she associates with at church — her Bishop, the leaders, and even her friends, will likely not be part of her life, but WE will be there as her father, mother,etcetera. That relationship will persist beyond moves, jobs, wards, etcetera for the rest of our lives. I then coached her on what I want said in interviews — if she couldn’t agree with my reasoning, at least respect my wishes as her father. If a church leader asks for personal information about her parents, she should tell them to call me. Second, if they disclose information, and then swear her to secrecy she should reply
“I won’t say anything, but if they ask me, I’m going to have to tell them the truth for the sake of my integrity”More came out today…the Bishop also encouraged her to talk to her counselor (she sees someone every now and then as leftovers from the bullying she was trying to learn to cope with years ago) about whether to come back to our home Ward or not. I realize we are not that active, but sheesh, I feel irrelevant as a father now. The Bishop even has a plan to put me over this really big service project — doesn’t get it that I barely feel much affinity for the church right now, have a million things on the go, and that a calling in that context is the last thing on my list of desireables…
Anyway, I’m not very happy with the state of affairs. I don’t blame my daughter as I too let the church come between me and my natural family as a young man. I get, how young people, do not get it sometimes. They say that the fact that your children become like you, is justice…
And last of all, I realize that culture seeps into our minds and character without us even knowing…as I reviewed all the things AP wrote above about how my daughter has been “schooled” at church — she’s assimilated that loyalty to church is more important than loyalty to family, and won’t even challenge that assumption….
You’re not irrelevant. But the kids want some control in their lives, so they will try to make you feel that way…just as part of growing up. My kids felt like they’ve heard my side of things already…they knew what dad was going to say…and seemed to seek other adults for their opinions and of course their friends.
THere were times I listened to them and specifically did not respond with anything but “I understand”…letting them know I’m interested…but not flooding them with my thoughts until they were ready for it, because I knew they would tune me out anyway. Then…when they realized their church leaders were saying stuff they didn’t feel right about…they came to ask me what I think.
But…in time…they’ve come to trust their dad. They know I’m not always right, my daughter may not share my views on same-sex marriage…but now that one is graduating BYU, the other married at BYU and a son graduating high school…they all come back to me to ask for advice because they tested things out…and found out there was some wisdom to why dad does what he does. A few have even apologized to me for being so disrespectful when they were younger (haha…they think they are so grown up now…I keep telling them they’re still young).
In time, if you let your daughter figure it out, she’ll do fine and respect her dad. Invest in the long-term relationship, regardless of whatever the issues are today. It is tougher than the good old days when I could just pick them up and put them on their bed and have greater control of their behavior. But…it is a lot more fun to have good grown up kids to hang out with!
When I was fairly young, my mother told me not to tell the Bishop anything…because they weren’t always going to be Bishops and they were human beings likely to be fallible. It was good advice. I think a conversation with your daughter is good…but I think you really need to call the Bishop out on this one. Your daughter was honest with you and told you…despite being “sworn” to secrecy…so she gets it.
I told my children that the first thing they should do when someone tells them NOT to tell their parents….is to TELL their parents! It’s creepy to swear a child to keep things from their parents. Really creepy.
The Bishop is probably well meaning, but needs a wake up call.
I agree. Creepy and wrong. To put the child in that place to have to think through that is irresponsible Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
This came up once on a TBM site when someone commented on how their church involvement had divided their family. Many were comfortable quoting this scripture in the Bible where Christ said:
Quote:For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Matthew 10:35
So, the Bible seems to justify this kind of behavior where religion is concerned — thoughts?
Take the Bible and then add in all of Brigham Young’s quotes and you could support any side of any argument 
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