- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Bruce said…. Quote:What about prophecy and seer-ship?
Exactly. What happened to current prophecy? Where are the angelic visitations and visions? What happened that seer-ship would be reduced to “feeling the spirit”? It sounds suspiciously like the heavens are shut for some reason….maybe it’s just me.
I said….
Quote:This exact idea has been a concern for me. Thanks for saying it.
Bruce said this in another thread (hope you don’t mind, bruce, if I steal this) but it expressed on of my deeper concerns and one that keeps me on the periphery of the church. I sometimes wonder if the church isn’t unlike how the church was in the BofM….ebbing and flowing in its righteous path. Is the church like the liahona in that it would only lead then on in their journey if they were faithful…..relying not just the faith of Lehi alone but on the whole group? Can the church stumble in its journey the same way? Or have we lost the gift of the spirit to some degree?
I would love some perspectives on this. My heart has confusion on this point.
Could be, I don’t know. Interesting question. I guess for me it boils down to relevance, as in: “How would this change the way I live my life, one way or the other?”
If it’s possible for the church as a whole to be more divinely inspired than it currently is, will I make decisions in a different way? Or the opposite question (if it’s as inspired as anything ever has been)? Personally I think my way of living and making personal decisions will remain the same no matter how these questions are answered. I try to do what I feel is best. I try to consider the greater love in every choice. Of course I’m human and fail in a lot of things, but this is what I aim for.
I do think an organization can show many of the same characteristics as an individual (learning as it goes). I wonder if it may be harder to forgive an organization than an individual. I try not to expect too much from anything that resides on planet earth.
My 2 cents at the moment (subject to later insights).
I was really hit hard by Elder Holland’s talk last Nov Conference: Jeffrey R. Holland, “The Ministry of Angels,”
Quote:In the course of life all of us spend time in “dark and dreary” places, wildernesses, circumstances of sorrow or fear or discouragement. Our present day is filled with global distress over financial crises, energy problems, terrorist attacks, and natural calamities. These translate into individual and family concerns not only about homes in which to live and food available to eat but also about the ultimate safety and well-being of our children and the latter-day prophecies about our planet. More serious than these—and sometimes related to them—are matters of ethical, moral, and spiritual decay seen in populations large and small, at home and abroad. But I testify that angels are still sent to help us, even as they were sent to help Adam and Eve, to help the prophets, and indeed to help the Savior of the world Himself. Matthew records in his gospel that after Satan had tempted Christ in the wilderness “angels came and ministered unto him.” Even the Son of God, a God Himself, had need for heavenly comfort during His sojourn in mortality. And so such ministrations will be to the righteous until the end of time. As Mormon said to his son Moroni, who would one day be an angel:
“Has the day of miracles ceased?
“Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
“Behold I say unto you, Nay; for … it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men. …
“For behold, they are subject unto [Christ], to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.”
My current journey is focused on helping me find out what that last part means:
“in every form of godliness”I loved Heber’s quote from Elder Holland. After my brother died, I read a book called The Message by Lance? Richardson. He had a near death experience and learned that angels are often family members who have passed on before. I did a post on it you might find interesting since you talked about angels. Go to http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/02/16/after-death-experience-the-message/ In answer to Poppyseed’s questions,
Quote:Is the church like the liahona in that it would only lead then on in their journey if they were faithful…..relying not just the faith of Lehi alone but on the whole group?
I think you’re onto something here. I’ve always loved Paul’s quote that we should “covet to prophesy.” I think that if church members were more righteous, the heavens would be opened and we would see many miracles.
Quote:Can the church stumble in its journey the same way?
I certainly believe it has stumbled, and will stumble in the future. After all, we are the church. If we stumble, the church can too.
Quote:Or have we lost the gift of the spirit to some degree?
Of course. We are the church. If we’re not receiving revelation, neither is the church.
Thank you Heber for sharing that. I will confess that I used to love talks like that. I still love them and felt particularly touched by this one. Even got a little misty. 
And thank you MH. I think i know that it is possible for the church to stumble. That makes sense in my head and it seems the BofM, if it was written for our day, was certainly trying to teach us something about ourselves with regards to this. On the church level and that of the individual. It seems to me that if this is true about the state of things today….even in pockets, then my faith can stay in tact.
But if the church never really had the favor of God…or maybe didn’t proceed as Jsmith intended then maybe it never had the power. And maybe we have just been trying to recreate it or preserve the ideas of such, then, well, I start thinking that maybe my experience has beent tainted by cultural pressures considering that my entire lineage on both sides is of mormon pioneers. This experience was rather inescapeable for me. And it makes me want to take all that is good from my mormon experience but perhaps move on without an official affiliation. I mean how would God feel about that? If the church isn’t a place where I am finding spiritual power, then were do I put my aligences? I was in RS the other day and everyone was sharing “healing” stories. I wanted to walk out. It just seemed that they were using the everyday and squeezing every bit of fantasticness that they could out of it and calling it a miracle. It felt almost insulting the power I have as part of my testimony, at least the power that I thought existed — the power that Jeffrey Holland testifies of so beautifully and boldly.
PS. I am leaning strongly toward the faith in tact side of things. But when someone gives me a healing blessing and it falls flat or leaders speak from their own minds instead of from the Spirit then I start to get cranky. The other day I was given a blessing that my health problems would be healed (something very profound to me and I wanted to stop the blessing and make sure the dude knew not to mess around with trite words) if I accepted my current calling. I accepted and put my full faith towards the promise. Since then my health has declined and even this morning I was back to the hospital. Is there no healing power, or are priesthood leaders not righteous enough to command it? If you say it is my faith, then you will have a battle on your hands. I have very strong faith. At least I think I do. I am just not sure I have faith in priesthood leaders at all anymore. I would rather look to see if I could heal like the women of the early church and tap the heavens that way.
Poppyseed, Sorry to hear about your health problem. I feel and believe (and have witnessed) that there very much is healing power in the priesthood but that God has the final say. He knows what is best for us better than we know ourselves. That is the REAL test of faint IMHO. At least it is for me.
Certainly the Church stumbles.
There is a pattern is every dispensation and, on a smaller scale, throughout history.
-Higher laws/great blessing potential is given to a people
-They can’t/won’t live up to them
-They are taken away
Whether it’s worshipping a golden calf, trading celestial plural marriage for statehood, or any of the multitude of BoM histories of people letting pride step in after a few years and ruin their spiritual lives….it seems to be pretty much the same. (the plural marriage remark is from my perspective only but you get my drift)
The huge difference is, IMHO, that this is the LAST dispensation. There won’t be any do-overs. Things WILL be put in order.
I agree that those who have not questioned bravely can be annoying at times…I’m referring to your RS friends telling healing stories. But I just try to put that in perspective and realize that that is where they are right now. I’ve been there myself and I’m sure you have also.
It certainly can be a lonely feeling when we first come out of, what I call, the Gospel Essentials Fog. There’s not a heck of a lot of folks that share the same feelings and the main body of church goers don’t seem to want to discuss it. I think that’s pretty normal. Thank goodness for places like this where these thoughts and realizations can be bounced off others.
Thanks Bruce. I know you speak the truth. I loved what you said about people just being where they are. I don’t sound like it today, but I really do believe that is true. Forgive me for my lack of perspective right now. When I ask for a blessing or when I am getting set apart and am receiving counsel, I feel like that is an act of putting my faith in God and not man. I believe that God can use flawed mortals to do and say cool stuff and I open myself up to what cool stuff is available for me in that moment. I have no problem experiencing health issues. I have had them all my adult life. I am not worried about it and I don’t feel abused by God when they don’t go away. And I don’t have any issue with the “God’s will be done” perspective either. Sometimes people need to die. Sometimes people need colonoscopies.
Quote:My current journey is focused on helping me find out what that last part means: “in every form of godliness”
Oh! I didn’t want to miss this. I really liked this idea.
I think too many people don’t understand and end up duplicating Moses striking the rock and conflating his authority with himself. D&C 121:39 says, “We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of
almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediatelybegin to exercise unrighteous dominion” – not just those who don’t hold the Priesthood. Quote:Bruce in Montana said…Whether it’s worshipping a golden calf, trading celestial plural marriage for statehood, or any of the multitude of BoM histories of people letting pride step in after a few years and ruin their spiritual lives….it seems to be pretty much the same. (the plural marriage remark is from my perspective only but you get my drift)
I got your drift, I would think Ray should either strike this remark of mine, or yours. If this is a StayLDS blog, what is a fundamentalist doing here pushing that agenda?
My apologies for your perception. I guess…. I kinda figured that “my perspective only” would be understood by all that there is no agenda to “push”.
That means that it’s….well….my perspective only.
With respect, if I had an agenda to push, I’d start my own fundamentalist blog.
I’m not interested in proselyting.
We see ourselves and the Church moving in the same direction…with things eventually to be set back in order but…once again…that is my perspective and I’m not trying to “push it” on anyone. Believe it or not, there are many that are curious and like to find that out.
I’m probably more interested in folks staying in the Church than a lot of Church members.
May I ask where you get the idea that I’m pushing an agenda? I thought I was being more than clear that I’m not.
If I can’t comment here, let me know.
edit:
In fact, the whole spirit of your post seems to be anti-fundamentalist and although I don’t want to cause ill feelings with anyone, I don’t want to take any “shots” either. It’s probably best that I just refrain from posting. My apologies jeriboy if I came across as anti-LDS….nothing could be further from the truth. All the best to you and yours.
Quote:It’s probably best that I just refrain from posting.
Absolutely not, Bruce, for me – certainly not in this way. We addressed this publicly back when you first started commenting. You have not tried to hide your beliefs, but you have never tried to push them – and your input on MANY topics has been invaluable here to show how you have dealt with your doubts and stayed “Mormon”.
jeriboy, Bruce has been part of this community since a little after it began. He has never tried to “push an agenda” – and he has always commented on topics like this carefully and with direct disclaimers. I don’t think there is another regular participant who feels like Bruce is here looking for converts – but I might be wrong.
everyone, if others feel as jeriboy has expressed, please send me a PM privately and let me know.If the consensus of the group is discomfort with Bruce’s participation, I will let him know. I am sure he would respect such a sentiment and not participate – but I personally believe we would be poorer for that if it occurred. I do NOT want this discussed publicly in the thread.Bruce doesn’t deserve that, and neither does this thread. Please communicate privately to me your feelings. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Well, since this is my thread and just for the record, I appreciate Bruce’s comments. They helped me and I am surprised they were seen as something other than supportive. I mean, at the end of the day, these concerns are mine and I will think for myself. I just appreciated that Bruce stopped by to listen and lift me a bit. I see no coersive influence. So yes. Back to the program.
I was thinking about the E Holland quote again. And I do want to say another thank you. I think when your mind starts swimming in the doubt, a little reminder is all one really needs. And maybe a little reassurance too. I do feel that Satan is trying to mess with me and confuse things. And in the end I really do want to be someone who is firm and steadfast in faith.
Well…I’m uncomfortable with all the attention… I appreciate jerriboy’s comments and look forward to hearing more.
I should not have been so thin-skinned….senior moment no doubt (or maybe those tacos for dinner)
Re: prophecy and seership…
That has to be in the back of all our minds. Some of the most beautiful manifestations of heavenly messengers have been recorded, not just by Joseph Smith, but by people like Mosiah Hancock, John Taylor, etc. It does make one wonder why this is not happening today…or, if it is….why it is not being recorded/known that we all might benefit.
I suppose that is the question of the ages for believers….Why does God choose to seemingly throw us into a world of secular reasoning versus faith? …and why aren’t heavenly manifestations occuring right now? It is certainly easier to just go with the secular reasoning but…when I have taken that path in my life, there is always something “missing”…..I don’t think that it’s just the way I was raised or wishful thinking either because I’ve known many others who weren’t raised with any religion at all that have the same feelings.
IMHO, we’ll probably all laugh at these speculations on the other side.
I hope so.
I really appreciate Bruce’s remarks, and I understand where he comes from. Bruce, please don’t stop posting. While we obviously disagree on the subject of polygamy, I find most of your remarks right on target. I’m sure that some are not as familiar with you as those of us who have been around a little longer, but I urge others to be as tolerant of Bruce as they are tolerant of those who question. This is a place where conservatives and liberals are welcome, and we need to be as tolerant of conservatives as we are of liberals. As I said before, I don’t agree with everything Bruce says, but I think he brings an important perspective here. Poppyseed, I think we often view the priesthood like a genie. I do not know why some prayers are answered and other are not–only God knows. Even Christ asked that the bitter cup be removed from him if possible, but it was not. Job is another example of someone who did not seem worthy of all the calamities thrown his way. I have struggled why prayers and priesthood blessings are not answered, and I don’t have any good answers.
I will say that I think our spiritual maturity is like a small child. Sometimes children ask for things, and parents refuse for good reasons, which as children we never grasp. As children, we often think our motives are pure. Sometimes they are, sometimes they’re not. It’s simply not good to give a child everything he/she desires. I think God acts the same way. If he gave us everything we desired, or were blessed with, simply because we asked, we would not learn from our disappointments. Many of life’s greatest lessons are learned through disappointments, though I find health problems can be agonizingly difficult to ascertain a positive lesson in one’s life.
I wish I had something more profound to say, but I think that struggling for the answer is often what God wants us to do.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.