What about prophecy and seership?

[Anonymous]

Bruce is cool.

Other than that; I feel that asking for things in prayer only shows God who you are. I don’t want to cheapen anyone’s prayers, but I don’t think it has anything to do with God’s plan for us. Ask all you want to go surfing, but God placed you as batting clean-up for the big game. What can you do but swing away?

[Anonymous]

@Poppyseed

I have often thought this as well. Maybe the church was on the right path, and then it fell into a form of apostasy. This is probably more in line with Bruce’s beliefs, and I consider it a possibility. I don’t think this is the most likely explanation though. I think much of it is cultural. We are not nearly as superstitious, spiritual revivalist, folk magic-ish, or have the other cultural aspects that led to the spiritual awakening in the early 19th century. Indeed, as has been pointed out here, and elsewhere in the bloggernacle, many, or most of the ideas in Mormonism are taken from other sources that were before, or during Joseph’s time. Maybe Joseph had “revelations” to clean them up, but maybe he didn’t. Maybe he was just a master at pulling pieces of his environment into his own life, and the church by extension. I dunno.

There are a fair number of other religious movements that sprang up during the early 19th century that had very similar claims to prophetic visionary experiences, and even buried plates. From a cultural standpoint, the honest truth is that we’re more likely to have “visions” about being abducted by aliens since this is what our culture has dictated in the last 50 years.

[Anonymous]

I think it’s next to impossible to judge how much of what happens in ANY organization is “prophetic” or “inspired” or “innovative” or “transcendent” (and, especially, “lasting”) in the moment. Just like in my own life, sometimes the only benefit of enduring comes from looking back with the perspective of time and realizing why I felt impressed to do something that I didn’t understand in the moment. That happens all the time to me now, but I have multiple decades of adulthood and marriage and parenthood which I can ponder now.

Personally, as I look back and try to see the fuller picture, I think I can appreciate the chaos of the genesis of the Church, the entrenchment that followed as the leaders dealt with the splintering that occurred as a result of the chaos, the move to correlate what was believed to be the core of the “restoration” and systematically stop teaching the speculative stuff that flourished amid the earlier chaos – and the current move to shift focus back to much of the original that is considered to be unique AND non-speculative.

My point with that long sentence is that “prophecy and seership” can take different meanings in different times, but I think, just like how a prophet is often without honor in his own land, it is easy for us to discount “modern prophecy and seership” because it seems so common and non-fantastic to us. Personally, I have seen a HUGE shift over the last 20 years to push the responsibility for practical prophecy and seership down the ladder and ask local leaders and members to become prophets in their own sphere – and that is an exciting return to a former time, albeit with correlation that attempts to control the chaos and limit collateral damage so that the earlier splintering doesn’t happen again. Having to manage that type of shift probably would give me ulcers, and it is an incredibly dangerous thing from an organizational development standpoint, so I appreciate it as truly inspirational.

Again, however, that is hard to recognize from the perspective of limited years. I dare say it might be almost impossible to see without at least 20 years of adulthood in the Church, which automatically excludes nearly all of those who yearn the most for change – the 18-40 year old group.

[Anonymous]

Sometimes I feel like a pontificating, perhaps arrogant mystic that is definitely *not* a part of the DAMU. OTOH, if I let my hair down on certain of other LDS websites, I worry about scaring the children. >sigh< I feel that on this site, I can really let my feelings come out without worrying too much about what I say. I hope none of you get too upset when I lay out my beliefs here. Sometimes I *know*, and I understand that that POV can be taxing to those who don't *know*. I don't blame anyone who doesn't *know*, since there is still 99.9998% of everything that *I* still don't know. BTW, I’m reading “On Being Certain – Believing You Are Right Even When You’re Not”, at the recommendation of Tom (not Tom Hays). So far, very interesting. The central theme of the book is: “Despite how certainty feels, it is neither a conscious choice nor even a thought process. Certainty and similar states of “knowing what we know” arise out of involuntary brain mechanisms that, like love or anger, function independently of reason.” I look forward to his scientific analysis of the data. From an occult (oops, I mean, mystical) viewpoint, I agree with his statement, although “involuntary brain mechanisms” is a crude, inaccurate and wholly inadequate descriptor, to my way of thinking. It is frustrating sometimes that science and the secular world view cannot give spiritual expression even weight of consideration. I know why that is, and I do agree with that approach in the secular arena, but it becomes particularly annoying when we deal with either institutional or personal religious historical events. /rant

Quote:

Bruce:

What about prophecy and seer-ship? Exactly. What happened to current prophecy? Where are the angelic visitations and visions? What happened that seer-ship would be reduced to “feeling the spirit”? It sounds suspiciously like the heavens are shut for some reason….maybe it’s just me.

These all still occur. Why do you speak as though they didn’t? Silence is not proof of non-existence. Understanding, comprehension and wisdom are not owed to anyone.

Quote:

Bruce:

Some of the most beautiful manifestations of heavenly messengers have been recorded, not just by Joseph Smith, but by people like Mosiah Hancock, John Taylor, etc. It does make one wonder why this is not happening today…or, if it is….why it is not being recorded/known that we all might benefit.

All that recording was a two-way street. If you were to read carefully in the Journal of discourses from, say, 1846 to 1856, you would know that there were many things recorded that are not true, and demonstrably so. As a fundamentalist, you undoubtedly know this better than most on this site. All that speculation! All that enthusiasm!

My personal view of things in this critical, early Church period is that the membership were more or less intoxicated with the Spirit. They were filled with the joy and enthusiasm of the heavens being opened, and as such they exerted their faith and belief in unrestrained optimism. Joseph knew well the risks, but he was no longer there to help these members through the same learning curve that he had endured.

So we find talks in Conference (Stake, General or otherwise) on MMP (which you probably believe in) and all sorts of other things that I’m sure you don’t believe in. I don’t blame those speakers! The problem is not receiving revelation, for those who know how to ask and receive. The problem is, living our lives in such a way that the revelations, when they come, are not distorted or misunderstood. And that is a very real sticking point not to be underestimated!

Quote:

Bruce:

I suppose that is the question of the ages for believers….Why does God choose to seemingly throw us into a world of secular reasoning versus faith? …and why aren’t heavenly manifestations occuring right now? It is certainly easier to just go with the secular reasoning but…when I have taken that path in my life, there is always something “missing”…..

So poignant! So meaningful. These questions and views are the heart of life, to me. There are two closely related attributes of Godliness that are also an integral part of mortal existence. These are Power, and Glory. In Jewish mysticism (using Hebrew words), these are Netzach (Victory) and Hod (Splendor). They exist on a continuum like this:

Splendor <

---

> Victory

here are some synonyms:

logic <

---

> emotion

reason <

---

> feelings

intellect <

---

> intuition

left brain <

---

> right brain

glory <

---

> power

Watch out now:

Male <

---

> Female

Ok, I’ve now blown all credibility out the door, I suppose… Anyone can be at any point on the continuum, be they male or female. This is a generality, as I’m sure you will realize.

Bringing the two into balance is critical for spiritual development and progress, according to the Jewish mysticism called ‘kabbalah’.

Why is marriage divinely instituted by the Lord? Why did Adam need to be Adam & Eve?

1 Cor. 11: 11

Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

A Freemason, upon being lifted to the 3rd degree, learns a key word: Balance. This word is also one of the three core values of the Dao.

I believe this life is the place and time in our development to learn balance. True faith comes in the balance, not in the extremes. Happiness in marriage come through each partner being able to balance these extremes.

The divine marriage of the Groom to the Bridegroom exemplifies this.

Now. Why is all this so important in this life. It is because of the nature of the next life, the next stage of existence. If we cannot act and move freely in true ‘faith’, we will be in deep trouble in the spirit world. We must prepare, just as we did for this life, before we were born!

Thanks for listening, and may you blessed be!

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

…and feel free to ask ‘why’?

…or not…

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I believe this life is the place and time in our development to learn balance. True faith comes in the balance, not in the extremes.

Amen – but “the natural (wo)man” tends to the extremes!

[Anonymous]

Before I make my comments.. How do you add a neat photo to your name like so many of you have here?

This is an interesting and important discussion. I have had some powerful spiritual experiences that have really helped me in my life. One example is when I prayed whether our family should move to Florida from Oregon. We had just traded some property in Ashland Oregon and my husband wanted to stay there. But, I felt so driven to move to Florida, so we prayed and fasted about it one more time. The first Sunday, I went to the Ashland ward and entered the Relief Society room, there was a beautiful painted mural covering one of the entire walls in the room. It was a drawing of “Cypress Gardens Florida.” Now, where has anyone ever seen that before in a RS room? Well, we had our answer and moved to Florida. While there, my husband was able to find a bunch of relatives on his dad’s side and they gave us a bunch of genealogy that my husband had never been able to find. On the other hand my husband had a bad experience with the Priesthood where he felt the spirit tell him to bless this sister in the ward that she would get well and live a long life on this earth still right in front of her non-member relatives in the hospital. Instead she got sicker and died within a few days. It totally shook up my husband and added to him leaving the church. So, I do not understand why somethings seem to work and others don’t for each of us. Bridget

[Anonymous]

bridget_night wrote:

Before I make my comments.. How do you add a neat photo to your name like so many of you have here?

go to “User Control panel”, then “profile” then “avatar”. Upload from a web site or your own PC/Laptop.

bridget_night wrote:

…On the other hand my husband had a bad experience with the Priesthood where he felt the spirit tell him to bless this sister in the ward that she would get well and live a long life on this earth still right in front of her non-member relatives in the hospital. Instead she got sicker and died within a few days. It totally shook up my husband and added to him leaving the church. So, I do not understand why somethings seem to work and others don’t for each of us. Bridget

I agree. Some, like Herschel Pedersen (former mission president, temple president) simply say the words and they happen. I, like your husband, don’t seem to have that going for me. I have concluded that (A) we don’t really know the ins and outs of priesthood like we would like to think we do; ( I won’t say anything ‘big’ in a blessing unless the Lord tells me to. I mean, a really powerful and unambiguous indication must be given, like what happened to Wilford Woodruff when he raised his wife from the dead. (C) I’ll change that POV when the Spirit tells me to. CLEARLY tells me to.

I am currently pondering and weighing “priesthood” in my mind & heart. I don’t understand it.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that info Jolly on adding a picture.

You are right–It is difficult understanding how the Priesthood works. Especially, since my husband rarely ever felt he got inspiration and then to have it so strong each of the 3 times he blest her, really shook him up. A friend of ours had a similar experience when he was a young man going with his dad to bless someone. His dad wanted his son to have an experience with the priesthood and asked his son to give the blessing. He felt strongly impressed to tell this woman that there would be no cancer when she went to the doctor in the morning. Well, she had cancer all over they found out. This poor young man said he walked around for hours in a fog, and daze crying. It seems we only hear the success cases at church and there is no place (except here) that I have found you can talk about when things don’t go right or difficult questions. For example, I do have a testimony that man can become like heavenly Father and a ‘little g-god). The temple ceremonies tell us that, yet I have had some very negative experiences in the temple that disturbed me. So, while everyone in RS is talking about how wonderful it is to go through the temple, I don’t feel like I can share my negative experiences anywhere. Bridget

[Anonymous]

Want to see if I uploaded the photo and if I did it right.

[Anonymous]

@HiJolly

I enjoyed your comments. That book is one I plan to read very soon.

HiJolly wrote:

It is frustrating sometimes that science and the secular world view cannot give spiritual expression even weight of consideration. I know why that is, and I do agree with that approach in the secular arena, but it becomes particularly annoying when we deal with either institutional or personal religious historical events. /rant

I think this is frustrating too. There are some who put weight on the spiritual. I am interested in Andrew Newburg’s work on God as a module in the brain. He has done some very interesting research on this subject. I too wonder about the reasons. Here are some thoughts:

1. Secular study is disenchanted with spiritual consideration. That is, in the minds of many, spirituality has shown to be unreliable in determining how reality works. What once was considered the work of God, is now understood to be natural reactions, processes, and events that shape our world. It dispels the myth that God is some puppet master pulling all the strings at the right time.

2. Maybe secular study is still in rebellion against spirituality. I consider this a huge possibility. That is to say, secular science is still sort of disillusioned with the natural tension that has gone on, and still goes on between religion and science. This is why I love people like Henry Eyring who saw benefit in both.

3. I think there is a tendency to view anti-religion and anti-spirituality sentiments as trendy. It’s not scientifically acceptable to admit the possibility of God, or a spirit, etc. I’d like to see an approach to science where scientists are truly open to all the possibilities despite what is popular or not. In psychology, most scientists don’t seriously consider the possibility that there is a spirit, or soul. Basically, the grey lump of meat in our head is responsible for our consciousness. There is evidence that supports this idea, but it is by no means conclusive. But in this light, it has become somewhat trendy, and is nearly an accepted fact despite the lack of conclusive evidence.

I agree that in secular study, religion and spirituality should not be given special consideration, but it ought to carry equal weight as a possibility and it is unfortunate that it doesn’t.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

bridget_night said… His dad wanted his son to have an experience with the priesthood and asked his son to give the blessing. He felt strongly impressed to tell this woman that there would be no cancer when she went to the doctor in the morning. Well, she had cancer all over they found out. This poor young man said he walked around for hours in a fog, and daze crying.

Bridget, I liked all of your comments on the above subjects. All men who exercise the priesthood and those who are recipients of its use probably question their role in the successful outcome of a desired blessing. When I become active again I know I will be experiencing the proverbial, fear and trembling. The experience of your husband and the young man can certainly help people like myself who may someday contemplate its use. A friend of mine had a premature baby who had a virus, the doctors could do very little for the baby at the time, my friend was newly active and unaccustomed to exercising faith in the use of the priesthood. So she used the shot gun approach of getting every priesthood holder within three miles to give her baby a blessing, the baby lived, so I have nothing bad to say about her method. But your stories have given me something to contemplate, thank you.

[Anonymous]

Jeriboy,

I can only imagine how difficult this must be for young and older men in the church. Some of the priesthood leaders have told me that when they give blessings and don’t really have any definite inspiration, they just say what they hope will happen and then end it with ‘God’s will be done.” According to what I understand in the gospel, ‘that all are not given the same gifts.’ I have heard some Priesthood men say that their Patriarchal blessings told them they would have a special gift for ‘healing’ others to get well and they seemed to have success with that. Although, when I was on my mission in Austria and got very sick, an elder who said his P. blessing said he had that gift and wanted to bless me, I did not get well and had to be sent home. I was out 20 months by then and in my heart really wanted to go home. I noticed in the changes in the new manual on another thread I started that Chp. 2 was changed with taking out the part that P. Blessings teach you your ‘talents and callings’ and replaced with learning your ‘eternal posssiblities.’ That is interesting because I got my P. blessing at 12 and it basically told me I should prepare myself to go on a mission and my told my husband he would be a bishop (though he has left the church now). Of course these are always predicated on righteousness as I understand. The main point of my last post was simply the frustration I feel in not having any place at church (Sunday School, etc) where a person feels really free to voice sincere questions or experiences that aren’t usual, without shaking others faiths or being looked at like you are weird.

[Anonymous]

JMB 275 said…3. I think there is a tendency to view anti-religion and anti-spirituality sentiments as trendy. It’s not scientifically acceptable to admit the possibility of God, or a spirit, etc. I’d like to see an approach to science where scientists are truly open to all the possibilities despite what is popular or not. In psychology, most scientists don’t seriously consider the possibility that there is a spirit, or soul. Basically, the grey lump of meat in our head is responsible for our consciousness. There is evidence that supports this idea, but it is by no means conclusive. But in this light, it has become somewhat trendy, and is nearly an accepted fact despite the lack of conclusive evidence.

Since science cannot study what they cannot see, for them then, it does not exist. I read somewhere years ago that someday people will be very surprised to learn just how intimantly God was involved in all the workings of this world. But for now hundreds of thousands of people’s careers are involved in studies that use only evolution as the basis for their insights. Right now I am reading an article by Dr. Bjorn J. Overbye titled ” Einstein’s Relativity, Warped Minds, Bent Truths.” I do not have enough science between my ears to determine to what degree he is or is not right. But i still beleive that between true science and true religion there is no conflict. Otherwise, what is the use of believing in God, our God must be better than were the God’s of Rome or Greece or present day christianity.

[Anonymous]

bridget_night wrote:

Thanks for that info Jolly on adding a picture.

You are right–It is difficult understanding how the Priesthood works. Especially, since my husband rarely ever felt he got inspiration and then to have it so strong each of the 3 times he blest her, really shook him up. A friend of ours had a similar experience when he was a young man going with his dad to bless someone. His dad wanted his son to have an experience with the priesthood and asked his son to give the blessing. He felt strongly impressed to tell this woman that there would be no cancer when she went to the doctor in the morning. Well, she had cancer all over they found out. This poor young man said he walked around for hours in a fog, and daze crying. It seems we only hear the success cases at church and there is no place (except here) that I have found you can talk about when things don’t go right or difficult questions. For example, I do have a testimony that man can become like heavenly Father and a ‘little g-god). The temple ceremonies tell us that, yet I have had some very negative experiences in the temple that disturbed me. So, while everyone in RS is talking about how wonderful it is to go through the temple, I don’t feel like I can share my negative experiences anywhere. Bridget

Do you ever think that priesthood people are afraid that this will happen and so they don’t go out on any limbs…..or they add language in the blessing to cover their fannies so to speak?

Sometimes this makes me think about the Savior in the NT and how in exasperation he comes to lift someone from the dead cause the disciples couldn’t do it for lack of faith. Perhaps all of this has to do with faith. I mean maybe the young man misinterpreted what the Spirit was saying. I don’t know.

[Author]

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