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This is my first post on this site. I found it about a week ago and have enjoyed reading the interesting perspectives given. I have been a member all of my life. Not active in my college years and 20’s. Very active the last 12 years beginning at time of my husband’s baptism. He too has been very active in that time. For the last 6 years we have struggled with different historical and doctrinal issues. Only ever receiving the same canned answers. Unsure where to go (with only church or anti-stuff as options) we just kept towing the party line. In the last couple of years the issues have started screaming at us. Its hard to reconcile them any more. (fortunately we are pretty much on the same page which is better than the alternative, I guess).
I have felt such peace, love and personal growth in the last year as i’ve come to some of my own realizations and personal truths. However, as a life-time member sometimes its hard to say “I’m done”.
I’ve enjoyed reading the cafeteria approach to Mormonism and if it were just me I could possibly live with that. I guess my first question for this board is, how do I reconcile this with my 4 young children? How do I take them to church every Sunday to be taught over and over and quite emphatically that there is this one way only, that JS was as close to Jesus Christ as anything we know, that to drink coffee is a terrible thing, to set up this impossible and constant stive for perfection where we are never quite good enough?
My oldest son is turning 12 in November. Obviously there is much pressure from family to have him ordained.(my parents don’t grastp where we are with church right now) How do we do that when we aren’t sure we think its true? I can’t ask that of him. (of course if he wants it I would completely support him). I know many of these things are cultural, but some are not.
My husband and I don’t believe many of the things they will learn coming up in the church and we will live and teach differently at home. When at middle-age I’m just figuring out how to sift through it and embrace the individual that I am, How can I expect them to be able to do it at their age? How can I watch them struggle to live the life that they will be taught being brought up in the church?
I believe there are many paths to our Heavenly Father. Surely this will be confusing to them. I know many of you out there have children. How do you walk that line?
It would be really helpful if you can answer an important question first. It will frame a lot of mine (our) responses: Do you like the Church? Sometimes that is surprising question. We don’t ask ourselves that much as orthodox members.
Do you like being a member and has it been a positive experience for you?
This is an important question because you have to decide really if you want to make all the other stuff work, even if it takes some tough changes in perspective. If you never really liked being a part of the Church, that’s OK, really. But it changes how you navigate your journey, and it probably indicates the church overall isn’t a good fit for your needs.
Also, I want to point out that you are probably never going backwards into the old framework. We aren’t here to convince you that you are wrong and just need to believe harder until your questions go away *POOF*. You will find the right answers, but they will be your own answers. They will be just right.
For me, I like the Church for people who aren’t heavily involved in leadership, or who aren’t experiencing the conflicts between its temporal and spiritual sides. It generally points people to a good life and helps kids and teenagers avoid pitfalls that can ruin their lives. Therefore, my approach is to obey the basic commandments for my children. Coffee and Tea aren’t an issue for me. If I liked alcohol (and I don’t) I would abstain from it as an example ot my children — both in public and in private. Since I don’t care for alcohol, I naturally find it easy to abstain. Same with smoking or chewing tobacco. I abstain for the fruits my example will bring to my children. My little girl complements me all the time because I don’t drink alcohol or smoke — she hates it when she sees it in her friends families and its one thing that she loves about our family culture. I also think this will teach my kids to run from situations when ther is alcohol, which can lead to sex, car accidents and other things that can be harmful to teenagers. I also think it might help them pick a spouse who doesn’t have vices that can lead to addiction eventually — not that all people who drink will have addictions, but the probability is far less if they abstain, in my view.
Regarding objectionable doctrine. I don’t teach it in family home evening or encourage discussions about it. I let the Church teach it and let my children believe it if they choose. Regarding the objectionable history — same thing — I keep it to myself. They won’t get it at Church, and when they do get it and come to me, I will have to cross that bridge at that time.
Regarding the priesthood. I came to grips with that a while ago. The priesthood does instill a sense of responsiblity and reverence for spiritual things in people. Giving blessings provides opportunities to give counsel and comfort people that they often don’t get in other ways. I see it as another way I can make people’s lives better. In some sense, it’s not much differnt from giving a person a new “role” in life. For example, “you’re a senior now, so you are an example to the freshman”. YOu can look at is as a new role/label to help kids make paradigm shifts about what is acceptable behavior and what is not. Even if you don’t necessarily believe the authority is the same authority that was passed on from Christ.
So, I want to raise my kids as MOrmons notwithstanding all the problems. What matters is that they make it to adulthood safe, good, kind, spiritual and such, and Mormonism tends to encourage that behavior as much or more than other religions I’ve been involved in. That”s my take on finding a middle way in Mormonism.
SD gave great advice. As for the kids, it is important to remember they are not middle aged adults. They are children with very different brains, different needs and normally a different framework of faith. I highly recommend, for both your kids and you as parents, that you learn a bit about the Stage theory of faith proposed by Dr. James Fowler. We have links to excellent podcasts on this general subject in the “Additional Support Resources” page of our website:
http://www.staylds.com/?page_id=29 James Fowler’s Stages of Faith, Mormon Interpretation, Part 1 of 3 — MP3 FILE
James Fowler’s Stages of Faith, Mormon Interpretation, Part 2 of 3 — MP3 FILE
James Fowler’s Stages of Faith, Mormon Interpretation, Part 3 of 3 — MP3 FILE
Fowler Stages of Faith – Overview, Part 1
Fowler Stages of Faith – Fifth stage and what it means to the LDS Church, Part 2
In a nutshell, kids need and want answers. They want competent adults they trust to tell them useful information that will help them adapt to their environment. They tend to have a more simple and literal faith. This is normal based on their brain development. As children grow older, they can understand more nuanced and complex relationships. They also gain the confidence to question their assumptions about the world (including religion).
I try to let my children guide me, in a sense, as to how they want to talk about God, faith and religion. I try to be ready to tell them in the way they can use it the best. My 17 and 19 year olds, I encourage open discussion, and they know that adults are not always right about everything. It’s OK to respectfully think differently.
My 8 year old though? He wants to know about God and what happens when we die, but he doesn’t want a 30 minute philosophical summation of all human thought on the subject, with the pros and cons of each viewpoint. He just wants an answer from his Dad. He wants to know that everything will be OK, and that God loves him (whatever God is). That’s fine. That’s what he wants and is satisfied.
I like to ask him what he thinks about a topic in religion. I love watching him think through it and make decisions. It’s beautiful.
I will def check out the link you gave me re:faith. Thanks for the food for thought. As to whether I like being a member of the church. That’s complex of course. Overall it has been a positive experience. I like the sense of community and purpose. You are right that it is not necessarily something I’ve specifically thought about. I have also struggled to feel as though I fit in culturally. I look the right part I guess outwardly, but have always felt as though it wasn’t quite me. I guess at the moment the quick response would be that I feel the things I do like about the church and the guidance it could offer my children as they grow, I could probably find elsewhere without having to sift through the “only true church” stuff and all that comes with that. Obviously I’m not sure. Still trying to figure out what is best. That truly is all I want to do. I think that’s hard for people to understnad sometimes. I’m not looking for excuses to live any particular way. I just want to do and live in a way that is pleasing to God and good for my family. I’m going through this issue right now. Although I’ve indirectly thought about it, I’ve never straight out asked myself, do I like the church? I think that question has two parts to it. Do I like the church on a daily/weekly basis? and Do I like the church over a long period of time? Another thing I’ve been asking myself is, can my children have the same benefits from the church that I had if they are raised with unbelieving parents? I think that a lot of the “peace” I felt from the church had to do with my perception of it (which I now believe to be from distorted information). If my perception has changed how will that effect my children’s experiences? I just finished listening to John Dehlin’s podcast on raising children in an NOM/StayLDS home. I think there may be a link to that here but I don’t know how to do links. One thing that was said there is that by staying in the church it allowed parents to have discussions with the kids that may not have otherwise occurred. When the kids learn something at church that is different then what is taught or observed at home they are bound to question but that does not have to be a bad thing.
FMOF
jules wrote:I guess my first question for this board is, how do I reconcile this with my 4 young children? How do I take them to church every Sunday to be taught over and over and quite emphatically that there is this one way only, that JS was as close to Jesus Christ as anything we know, that to drink coffee is a terrible thing, to set up this impossible and constant stive for perfection where we are never quite good enough?
Recognize that you won’t find absolute truth anywhere. There will never be any certainty about everything in other Churches either, so to some extent, you’ll be facing a lot of the same issues in other Churches, but with different content. The Mormon brand of truth does point your kids to live a good life, a nd surrounds them with a villiage of clean living people who have good values. Celebrate that part of it, and keep them involved for those reasons. Don’t teach the objectionable stuff at home. Let the Church do it and let kids make their own decisions as they get older. Help them accept themselves in spite of their weaknesses and imperfection. The belief that we are never good enough may be entrenched in the gospel, but at home, you can help them love themselves in spite of their imperfections. There are articles by Russell M Ballard that tell you just to do your best — read those and focus on that interpretation of perfection and striving –it’s less stringent and brings me peace personally; it might work for you.
Also, recognize your state of belief now is an ADULT orientation toward the gospel. Kids aren’t capable of really understanding the depth of thought, the influence of life experiences, etcetera that led you to that way of thinking yet. It also took you a lot of years to get to this point (which I’m not implying is wrong either). Don’t expect them to adopt this orientation and grow up so fast. For my kids, 7 and 11, on-the-surface Mormonism is enough to keep them solid and secure in their view of the world. For them, it’s a milestone to help them believe in regular prayer, the existence of God, and how to have good relationships with each other. I wouldn’t go complicating things for them by pulling the rug out from under the foundation your years in the Church have established so far. Let them experience Mormonism, and then be ready and waiting to share your own ideas about the gospel when they start having questions when they are adults — if they corner you. Recognize that although our children are our own, they will ultimately make their own decisions about the Church — let them eventually. They may reach conclusions different form yours when they are old enough to do the necessary thinking about it. And their conclusions may well bring them peace and happiness, even though they are different from yours. If my kids believe everything hook, line and sinker, and are at peace, then I’ll be happy. So many people aren’t at peace…for my kids to have that within Mormonism, by their own choosing, is fine with me, if it happens.
Quote:My oldest son is turning 12 in November. Obviously there is much pressure from family to have him ordained.(my parents don’t grastp where we are with church right now) How do we do that when we aren’t sure we think its true? I can’t ask that of him. (of course if he wants it I would completely support him). I know many of these things are cultural, but some are not.
Look at the priesthood as a “rite of passage” within the Mormon culture. One that will teach him to serve God and others, that will help him take one step closer to growing up to be a good man. Let being a deacon be a new mantle he can carry with him to change his perspective about his role in the world. Don’t worry about whether it’s true and that he’s really got authority passed directly on down from Christ. Look at it as a new label and role for him to live up to, for the strengthening of his character.
What concerns me is that you don’t have anything to replace the LDS faith with at this point, and the dislocation that will ensue by saying “We used to believe [insert Mormon theology here] but now we don’t believe it anymore.” That would rock a kids world, in my view….stay involved for the stability, and the continued perception of your children that their parents have truth and knowledge and can be relied upon for answers. I’m concerned that a sudden or gradual break may lessen their belief in their parents as effective guides and mentors – on religious and other issues if you make a sudden change like this….
And I don’t think there’s much out there in the Christian world that will point the kids to a higher standard of life than you get in the LDS Church…I don’t see much better out there to replace it with, honestly.
But that’s just how I view my own relationship with my kids at this point.
Funny how when I realize that there is no real absolute truth on which I can hang my hat, Mormonism suddenly becomes good enough for me…even a standout, notwithstanding the things I don’t like about it.
Quote:My husband and I don’t believe many of the things they will learn coming up in the church and we will live and teach differently at home. When at middle-age I’m just figuring out how to sift through it and embrace the individual that I am, How can I expect them to be able to do it at their age? How can I watch them struggle to live the life that they will be taught being brought up in the church?
Don’t expect them to do it at their age — they won’t have the depth of questions/conclusions you have after decades of experience and reflection in the Church. As I said earlier, the basic Mormonism you get at Church is enough, and even beneficial at this phase of their lives.
Also, you don’t know for sure that they will struggle with what they will be taught. I didn’t start struggling until I was many years into the Church and had some negative experiences as a leader, and with LDS Social Services, and a Stake President regarding a mission. When I first heard the LDS Gospel, it gave me the answers I was looking for, and helped me get married, stay married, without any of the pitfalls that come from not having values or clear standards in your life.
Quote:I believe there are many paths to our Heavenly Father. Surely this will be confusing to them. I know many of you out there have children. How do you walk that line?
I believe there are many paths too, at least now. However, its too confusing for kids to experience them all at this point. Pick the LDS one and let them experience that one. But let them experience it without any conflicting messages at home at this point. I started studying ISLAM and Traditional Christianity lately (from a historical standpoint) and I got confused — I wouldn’t put that on children at this point. Just let them experience this one for now.
No doubt this will cause tension when you have to experience doctrine you don’t believe in. I say spend some time finding intrinsic reasons for “doing the major commandments” — reasons that you believe in deeply for their own sake. They will need to be your own ideas, and not the standard “because my Bishop said this is where God wants me right now”, or “because if I don’t I will be burned at the second coming”…..find your own reasons that speak to you personally. There are some good instrinsic ones in the StayLDS article that I think are worth considering and potentially adopting if they resonate with you. Also consider creating your own. So often the good, personal reasons get buried under the culture, the objectionable doctrine and the interpersonal conflicts. But I’m finding there are many good reasons for living certain commandments over and above the Standard Reason its “a commandment”.
That is how you reduce the tension…..in my humble opinion.
I am convinced – absolutely convinced – that there is nowhere I can go and/or worship where everything taught by everyone in every position of authority will match what I believe personally. Therefore, no matter where I worship there will be times when I will feel the need to talk with my kids about what they’ve heard at church – to give them my own perspective, while trying to do so in a loving, accepting, non-condemning way. I have that experience relatively often, but it generally is about the minutae – the details – the cultural crap. My kids know when I don’t agree with what someone says, but they also know I love and sustain and support and serve the person who says it. They also know I don’t obsess over what is said, although I do correct occasionally if I feel like it’s necessary.
I’ve learned over the years to chill more often now than I did in the past, and it has let me have WONDERFUL discussions with my children.
It also has taught them that they don’t have to agree with me to get my love and sustaining and support and service – and that is an important lesson, imo.Old-Timer wrote:I’ve learned over the years to chill more often now than I did in the past, and it has let me have WONDERFUL discussions with my children.
It also has taught them that they don’t have to agree with me to get my love and sustaining and support and service – and that is an important lesson, imo.There are few realizations in life more valuable, healthy and rewarding than those. Think of what that passes on into future generations. I am convinced that our (all of us) associations with people are a key element to progress in the grand eternities.
Human beings are the perfect teachers for each other, and mostly because we bug the crap out of other people because we are different. It is such a HUGE evolution to come to the realization that nobody else sees things like we do individually … and that’s OK. In fact, it is good.
If all people believed the same, on every level of detail, we would be like lemmings and eventually fall of a cliff to our doom. Game over for the human experience.
SilentDawning wrote:What concerns me is that you don’t have anything to replace the LDS faith with at this point, and the dislocation that will ensue by saying “
We used to believe[insert Mormon theology here] but now we don’t believeit anymore.” That would rock a kids world, in my view….stay involved for the stability, and the continued perception of your children that their parents have truth and knowledge and can be relied upon for answers. I’m concerned that a sudden or gradual break may lessen their belief in their parents as effective guides and mentors – on religious and other issues if you make a sudden change like this….
I think that each child and each parent are different. I have actually used this approach with my daughter and it was received very well. I think it’s OK to tell your children that you used to believe something because of what you were taught but now you have learn new things that have change how you see things. I think it is an example to your kids that they too have the right to allow their beliefs to evolve.Take it slowly and deal with the here and now. I know that’s not very comforting but I think it’s the best approach. Like I said before I am also struggling with this. The youth years are my concern but I have about 1 1/2 yrs still and who knows maybe it won’t become a problem like my mind has conjured up. It’s hard not focusing on all the concerns/contradictions we have but like mentioned already if we do that we overlook the benefits and positives the church has to offer.
Quote:Funny how when I realize that there is no real absolute truth on which I can hang my hat, Mormonism suddenly becomes good enough for me…even a standout, notwithstanding the things I don’t like about it.
Yeah, this is kind of how I see it. I don’t care for the LDS church much, but there is something inside me that DRIVES me towards the spiritual realm, and I have yet to find a pathway that’s better than the mormon church, that would get me where I want to go any faster or more efficiently. Spirituality is messy. Religion is even messier — I wish there was an easier road, but I don’t think it was meant to be that way. I have very little doubt that there are MANY such pathways on this planet — I just don’t know where they are, and the LDS pathway probably is a good as any of them. IMO.
The LDS church is a SAFE way to live and raise kids. Even if the church isn’t true, and JS was a complete fraud, there really is no harm in living the concepts and principles of Mormonism as it it taught today. I have decided to stay LDS, and raise my kids LDS – at least until they have grown mature enough where they can make their own, hopefully, wise choices in regards to morality and ethics, and until they can make their own decisions in regards to the spiritual realm and religion. When they become adults, I will wish them well on there “journey”. Until then – we are LDS. I don’t think the human brain, and limited experience, is able to understand and work through the complex nature of spiritual truth until, well, probably 20′ or 30’s. So I will stay, angst and all, and teach my kids “truth” the best I can in spite, or perhaps, despite the many problem I have with the LDS culture.
jules wrote:This is my first post on this site. I found it about a week ago and have enjoyed reading the interesting perspectives given.
Welcome Jules! I hope you’ll be able to find strategies that will provide some measure of peace on this site while you’re on your spiritual journey.
jules wrote:My oldest son is turning 12 in November. Obviously there is much pressure from family to have him ordained.(my parents don’t grastp where we are with church right now) How do we do that when we aren’t sure we think its true? I can’t ask that of him. (of course if he wants it I would completely support him).
I was late on a couple of “milestones” growing up. I wasn’t ordained a teacher until I was 14 1/2 and I wasn’t ordained a priest until I was nearly 17. I was worthy, but several of the older boys in the quorums were bullies. The leaders couldn’t/wouldn’t control them, and having to sit in the same class with them even for an hour was utterly unbearable. I found out the hard way that worthiness to advance in the Aaronic priesthood was a minor detail compared to being of age to advance. Several people in the ward gossiped and speculated about some heinous sins I may or may not have been committing. And the bishop started paying visits to our house every other week asking me when I wanted to advance. He knew all about the bullying problem, but he was apparently more interested in saving face with the stake president by having his boys advance. At least that’s my theory.
My advice would be to let your son receive the priesthood, if he wants it. It’s an important cultural marker, as you alluded to, and it will make his life easier with his peers, family members, and others.
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