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A few more possible answers. Quote:
1. I made those covenants over 25 years ago under one set of premises. Those premises have changed.When they probe about the premises, comment that our church culture doesn’t permit the kind of openness/safety that would allow that discussion to happen.
End with hope that things will turn around, but for the time being, I’ll follow my conscience. When my perspective changes, I’ll be back to reopen the discussion.
Here is another
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2. Take the approach that personal happiness is the object and design of our existence. My current path has brought me far more happiness than I had before. Point to my community service, my personal growth, and the way I’m able to use my talents in a way the church could not allow.Here is another
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3. Sidestep the question and point to the ways I serve mankind in other contexts. That I wasn’t growing in the church. I’m ambitious in my service from the perspective I want new experiences, and not the same ones over and over again.I have just always found that some responses, while logical or meaningful to me, are not always understood by others who are coming from a correlated mormon perspective where nuanced answers aren’t really understood. The example I would use is from my mission when I bought and ate coffee cake for breakfast. The AP visited our apartment, saw the box of “Coffee Cakes” and reprimanded me for breaking the Word of Wisdom. When I explained it is just the name, no coffee in it, he still said, “Well, the appearance of evil, Elder.”
I remember thinking, he just has never looked into the ingredients of Coffee Cake to know what he’s talking about. I don’t know in a short apartment inspection visit I’m going to fully explain it, or care to.
It was easier for me to just tell him, “No, i”m not breaking the Word of Wisdom.” and leaving it at that, rather than a nuanced response, for which he isn’t really interested in or asking about.
I guess if you are having a good discussion with someone you trust and can explain the nuanced answers, great. But many times, people are just reacting, and not really knowing what they are asking, but simply reacting to something unfamiliar to them. And sometimes, short and direct responses work pretty good to avoid the discussion since they’re not really prepared to talk about things anyway.
I think the person who asks this is trying to guilt trip you into doing whatever it is they want, accept a calling, pay tithing etc. I think my response in your case might be ” I’m fulfilling them by serving all men (since you do outside community work) or a more rude version ” that’s none of your business”. I do agree with the renewing of temple covenants idea, after all we renew our baptismal ones every week why not the temple ones? It’s been years since I’ve been to the temple and I don’t feel an obligation to follow the covenants I made, so if asked I might respond with ”I no longer believe or hold to those covenants and so don’t feel obligated to fulfill them” of course that would probably digg me deeper. Part of my strategy to stayLDS has been to portray myself as someone that is struggling, earnestly trying, and pointed towards growth and change. 1) struggling. In the early part of my faith crisis when I was sharing TMI, I objected to my EQP’s characterization of me as struggling. He testified that from his perspective I was very much struggling. In order to “get along to go along” I now do not object when people assume that my more complete, fulfilled, and ultimate self would look much like them – holding to the iron rod without questions. Because my daughter’s stillbirth precipitated my FC, it can sometimes been helpful to tell people about grief. The grief process is much less threatening to TBMs than a FC would be.
2) earnestly trying. I fulfill my calling in the primary and help people move with the EQ. I work every sunday and can only come to part of church at great sacrifice. (truth be told I could switch my day off but that would expose me to more significant church demands.)
3) pointed towards growth and change. I lead with faith. I tell my bishop that I have a hope for things that I do not at present know – isn’t that the substance of faith? I keep the door open to future recommitment, future tithing payments, future service in demanding callings, future temple weddings and missionary farewells for my children.
This works out ok as far as not being threatening to anyone’s world view or preconceived notions and it is potentially sustainable forever. The major downside is that I am generally not seen as an equal by them men in the church. Primary has been a nice refuge for me. The women of the primary tend to treat me respectfully as a priesthood holder and the children love me.
Heber wrote: Quote:The example I would use is from my mission when I bought and ate coffee cake for breakfast. The AP visited our apartment, saw the box of “Coffee Cakes” and reprimanded me for breaking the Word of Wisdom. When I explained it is just the name, no coffee in it, he still said, “Well, the appearance of evil, Elder.”
What would he have done with Root Beer? You probably would of been home early.
I know silly & sarcastic.
Mike wrote:Heber wrote:
Quote:The example I would use is from my mission when I bought and ate coffee cake for breakfast. The AP visited our apartment, saw the box of “Coffee Cakes” and reprimanded me for breaking the Word of Wisdom. When I explained it is just the name, no coffee in it, he still said, “Well, the appearance of evil, Elder.”
What would he have done with Root Beer? You probably would of been home early.
I know silly & sarcastic.
There’s always the root beer in the brown glass bottles. (:
Quote:The example I would use is from my mission when I bought and ate coffee cake for breakfast. The AP visited our apartment, saw the box of “Coffee Cakes” and reprimanded me for breaking the Word of Wisdom. When I explained it is just the name, no coffee in it, he still said, “Well, the appearance of evil, Elder.”
If I got along with him I would be inclined to say, “I would worry more about the appearance of ignorance”. But it sounds like he was “THE ZL” Sigh.LookingHard wrote:If I got along with him I would be inclined to say, “I would worry more about the appearance of ignorance”. But it sounds like he was “THE ZL” Sigh.
Ok, I admit it. I got a big chuckle out of that one.
My oldest was endowed a few months ago. I was very aware to let him know what he was getting into. I reviewed with him the five covenants to principles of the gospel we make in the temple. To keep
– the law of God
– the law of sacrifice
– the law of the gospel
– the law of chastity
– the law of consecration
It is not a secret. I think there should be more transparency about what covenants we are going to make. I am grateful that the church put out the article and video on the temple garment and robes. It came out after he took out his endowments.
The biggest thing that threw him was the unusual temple robes and (i guess) the ritual that goes with them. And he was not thrown off much from what I could gather. I made sure that I stayed close to him in the celestial room, in case he had questions or concerns. We attended several time before his mission started and I followed up.
As far as the original question. Depending on the situation and person asking you might say something like.
Quote:Do you mind if I ask you a question? (wait respectfully for an answer)
Why are you asking me?
– Are you trying to guilt me into being more active? etc
I am doing my best based on how I understand my experience with the endowment.
I am following my conscience.
Basically have a heartfelt conversation with them about your situation. Who knows what good will come from that? Vulnerability is powerful stuff.Thanks Rich, I appreciate your perspective.
LookingHard wrote:I would worry more about the appearance of ignorance.
:clap: There are many things I did as a teenager that I do not want to be held accountable for to this day. Supposed promises I made in a supposed ceremony that was way over my head, is one thing I would like to do over. Like the 8 year old that enters covenants with the Almighty God of the Universe for a baptism and commitment to follow Jesus Christ and keep commandments…there is symbolism and hopes of teaching things to the child at the level of their understanding at the time, but the true understanding and realization of those hopeful promises come later as we learn line up on line, grace by grace. I took my daughter through the temple recently when she got married…and my advice was the same my dad told me…don’t worry about all the temple rituals, and the robes, and the words and the actions being told to you that you need to say back…just focus on the feelings you have, the spirit of it, and the hopes and promises of starting a marriage with that eternal perspective. You return to the temple later to try to understand what it means to you more. I can’t tell her what she will think about the temple at age 40…she is young and hopeful and trying to find how to start a life with hope and love and promise.
I did try to help her prepare by not taking things literally…but reiterated the power of symbolism in it all.
My temple marriage ended in divorce. But I could not have known the problems we would face as a couple and our incompatibility until we tried it and learned about ourselves. Then the covenants meant something different to me than the hopes I had for those covenants when I started out. Perhaps that applies to our relationship with the church and/or with God. Things change, and we re-evaluate…regardless of what we hoped for at the start.
I have learned precept by precept. And now establish a new hope for my future. Something to learn from the past but radiate hope for a brighter tomorrow. I don’t regret my marriage. Nor the covenants I made at age 8. I just take the things from them that help me to be a better person today, and discard the rest.
As a single endowed male over thirty, I feel neutered. nibbler wrote:That seems like a highly coercive thing to ask. A modern day angel with a sword.
To be juvenile about it:
What about your temple covenants?
[img]http://i.imgur.com/uvsvYU5.jpg [/img] To shift the onus of uncomfortable dialog back on them. Plus I’d be real interested in what they had to say.
:angel: I may be your number one fan Nibbler! You are brilliant, just brilliant!
😆
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