What are the absolute commandments to obey?

[Anonymous]

Valoel wrote:

I wanted to chime in on the topic of changing our practices and views as we shed baggage. It is vital to do a lot of soul searching, look honestly in the mirror and ask the all important question “Am I trading up?” A follow up to that is “What are the risks and potential rewards.”

I love this comment. I can’t seem to connect to the idea of listen to the spirit. I mean what is the spirit? Is the warm feeling I felt passing a catholic church the spirit? Is it my grandmother who was “amazing” and a baptist christian. Who’s commandments are correct, mormons or catholics? But risks and rewards, yes I can look at it from that point of view. Maybe we need another forum on risk versus reward. You know a this is what happened to me and why I don’t do it anymore. Of course one person can get different results then the other. Example, if you bought a house before the market took off and sold it you may be sitting in a house owned outright. But if you bought it when the prices were high, you may be losing your house.

[Anonymous]

General cultural and community standards are in fact very good ones (or call them commandments), most of the time. They usually come from the wisdom of many many generations of experience. So I have a hard time ever promoting that one should deviated from them just for the sake of “growing up” or becoming an individual. If deviated from, it should be for carefully considered reasons.

And then another thought … how much more guilty are we when we violate our own “commandments?” There’s nobody else to blame then 😈

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

I think that it’s all about love too. But I am not sure I completely agree with the Beatles that all we need is love. I think that its a process to becoming loving in the Godlike sense of the word which encompasses an incredible list of attributes and capacities. But just being loving doesn’t save us. We are fallen and must obtain the blessings of the atonement. So obedience becomes very important if you think in terms of being saved from sin and death and the nature of the natural man which is the opposite of love anyway. And I think the world and its philosphies misunderstand what love is and what it isn’t. God loves but he doesn’t disobey law in order to do it. God is perfectly loving and perfectly obedient.

Hi Poppy, I’m glad you share your perspectives here. I think we agree on the important points, but the barriers of using imperfect language often makes the process of communication more difficult.

I don’t believe that love in it’s fullest form is anything close to simple. It is simple in the sense of a one word description, but learning to live it in its fullness is far from simple. Personally I think the most complex “checklist” is far simpler. Godly love in its fullness encompasses everything, far more than mere mortals can comprehend. In short I’d say God IS perfectly obedient BECAUSE He is perfectly loving.

I say being truly loving does save us because when we develop that love we naturally activate the blessings of the atonement. If we think of any named commandment we can tie it to love — meaning if we truly love we naturally live the commandment plus much more than what is stated in some cases. I agree many people probably misunderstand what love is and what it isn’t, but I support them as they try to live the level that they do understand. I think I’d say the natural man is both selfish and loving, you could say selfish because of the fallen state and loving because he is a child of God. Maybe people mean by “natural” what I would call “fallen”, that would make more sense to me. But I still see the “fallen” man as a child of God so I don’t see any specific man wholly as an enemy to God when you consider his whole being and potential. I guess I interpret “natural man” from the scriptures to mean “fallen attributes of man.”

Random thoughts.

[Anonymous]

Valoel wrote:

this has been one of the hardest hobgoblins for me to shove back into the box since disaffection. It isn’t because I am suffering ill consequences. In fact, that is exactly why it is hard. I really have a hard time connecting and finding meaning in my old ways (orthodox).

So is this disobedience? Or is it obedience to what I learn from first-hand experience?

Valoel, this is how I feel as well. I still have faith that God speaks through prophets and so there are commandments I may not see or understand, and that is the hope of following a prophet. But it is hard to also feel I’m being led on a journey of growth to find deeper meaning in things, and then see somethings don’t really seem to have any meaning. To me, those are the commandments that seem hard to understand, even if it is still easy to be obedient to them. I have started ranking or prioritizing them, and letting go of worrying about the ones lower on the totem pole.

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

Quote:

Hi Poppy, I’m glad you share your perspectives here. I think we agree on the important points, but the barriers of using imperfect language often makes the process of communication more difficult.

I don’t know exactly what that means, but ok.

Val, your comments, as always are compelling and interesting and they resonnate with me. I think that there is amazing wisdom that comes from trying to obtain and live by the vision of the law rather than the motivation that comes from the sting of the whip and the bite of the dog. I have been studying a lot lately and the concept of intelligence is on my mind. What makes one more “intelligent”? I wonder about intelligence and how obedience gets one to better views of things as well as wider capacities. And certainly love is inside and around all of it as upon love hangs all the laws and the prophets. But that’s just it. All the laws hang on love, they aren’t done away or replaced by love. And I do think that God himself understands the benefits to personal experience, experimenting and taking responsibility for ones diviations, as you put it. That idea seems fundamentally LDS! Even if some don’t completely understand that yet. I feel that God is hopefully guiding all of us on personal journeys and he may lead one inside and outside the law as that may help a person to understand. That certainly seems to be the case with me. Yet he invites me to obey now that I have had my time outside the law. To obey things I don’t wanna necessarily do or things I don’t see meaning in yet.

My only reservation from your perspective is from a line of scripture. What about God’s will? When does ones deviations make one a law unto himself? And are those divations driven by love and even motivations of obedience or rebellion? It really boils down to God’s will vs. ours. If we love him, we keep his commandments. At least that is what the scriptures teach. If we discard the law and will of God behind it and justify doing so because of love, I think we miss an important truth.

I can see, as I do feel it too, that sometimes the commandments feel empty and the going thru the motions pointless. I wonder how the most righteous before Christ felt as they were confined to live the lower law of moses. And here we are in the higher laws with all possibilities restored and still struggle with the confinement of it. But I guess what I am learning in my journey is that my ideas of where and how I might find wisdom are not greater than what God would teach me if I would obey. Leaving the church and its way did not bring me peace or love or joy or knowledge.

I find it interesting that you use the WofW as an example. I absolutely agree with you that there are various perspectives that could help one live the law better, but the law isn’t only a bout health. It’s to be a sign between us and God like the children of Israel with the blood on the doorways…..as if blood on doorways was in any way powerful. It’s not the blood, its the sign the obedience creates…..the outter expression of an inner devotion. And if we simply do it, he promises us wisdom and knowledge about hidden things. Wisdom and knowledge! WOW! And if everything hangs on love, love just might be part of the revelation.

The church is the church is the church. It’s earthly and limited and if our eyes don’t extend beyond it, we will trip over it! Understanding God’s will for what the church is suppose to do for a person, that is the trick. And frankly I think some are too scared to find those higher views because the safety of the law feels so comfortable and they judge too harshly those who aren’t doing it like they are.

I remember a conversation on another site that was interesting. It said taht there was two kinds of people in the church. The “liahona” kind and the “letter of the law” people. The one who follows the spirit from moment to moment and the one that leans on traditional law itself. I wonder if God wants us to learn to be both. To understand the law but to be flexible enough to listen to the expedient commandments of the present. I wonder sometimes when I read posts here if people worry that they have to be the letter of the law kind to be good and that the liahona stuff makes one a rebell. If I read the scriptures right and understand Jesus correctly, it seems that it is the people who either get blinded by the law or who leave the law completely who miss it. And maybe being a little bit of a rebel is what helps one reallly progress. It seems like this might be part of what you are saying.

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

I think that it’s all about love too. But I am not sure I completely agree with the Beatles that all we need is love. I think that its a process to becoming loving in the Godlike sense of the word which encompasses an incredible list of attributes and capacities. But just being loving doesn’t save us. We are fallen and must obtain the blessings of the atonement. So obedience becomes very important if you think in terms of being saved from sin and death and the nature of the natural man which is the opposite of love anyway. And I think the world and its philosphies misunderstand what love is and what it isn’t. God loves but he doesn’t disobey law in order to do it. God is perfectly loving and perfectly obedient.

Okay, PS you know I “love” you, so take my diagonal view as it is meant to be. Diagonal!

I think the Beatles were right…”all you need IS love.” The reason that we struggle with it is that we are also given “commandments” that are not “from love,” but, IMO, are from fear.

First, for those that may not know my background, I don’t believe that most scripture is really the “word of God.” I think most books were plagiarized, misinterpreted, etc…and that what Jesus actually taught was love, and love only. I don’t even believe he taught that we are “fallen, and in need of atonement…”

I think the rules given us are to control and homogenize “us” so there is a need for an institution (church) to continue existing for the benefit of uniformity. Now, don’t get me wrong…I think in the past, churches were helpful to teach the uninformed how to live wisely; but I see a major evolution in the churches that still exist, and a huge exodus of most dogmatic church’s members.

I see the battle for gay rights, the continued research for evidence (or lack thereof) of historicity of all scripture and miracles, as the natural debate and illumination of what love really is. IOW, as a specific, the gay rights issue is being headlined almost daily as it relates to the current church position. The PR (mostly negative) the church is getting is very much like what happened 50 years ago with the blacks. Logical people (including church leaders) are having to deal with the glaring truth that the current teaching is not from love, but from fear, and are doing what they can to figure it out. Love will prevail, and a new teaching will emerge that is from love, not fear.

Subtly, other “rules” are changing. I spoke with a recently returned missionary from Japan. I served there in the late 70s, and it was always a problem to have to turn down the green tea they would serve us everytime we were invited in to talk to them. It made no sense to them, as medical science was clear that it had many health benefits…but it was “against the WoW.” Today, they are encouraged to drink it, as the previous “interpretation” of the WoW was mistaken.

Today, there is rapid spread of information and news. The church both benefits, and is hurt by this. Or, at least some would say “is hurt,” as my personal feeling is that it is good since it brings the church into integrity…and love.

Diagonally yours….

[Anonymous]

Rix, I like your views…call it diagonal or just flat out strange – I find them valuable to me personally. Thanks.

Rix wrote:

Subtly, other “rules” are changing. I spoke with a recently returned missionary from Japan. I served there in the late 70s, and it was always a problem to have to turn down the green tea they would serve us everytime we were invited in to talk to them. It made no sense to them, as medical science was clear that it had many health benefits…but it was “against the WoW.” Today, they are encouraged to drink it, as the previous “interpretation” of the WoW was mistaken.

This is what I also see with the church, and why I think love and truth will always prevail…because times change and modern prophets need to clarify what the scriptures meant and what prior prophets said that was important today and what is not important today.

WoW just isn’t important to me…the more I study it, the more I continue to feel it is not important to focus on the 4 No’s, and more of just understanding the spirit of restraint and moderation. In that is love.

I think all commandments should be founded on Love, but when put into practice do have real earthly consequences. Can you explain a little more what you mean:

Rix wrote:

The reason that we struggle with it is that we are also given “commandments” that are not “from love,” but, IMO, are from fear.

I struggle with WoW and tithing. But I wonder if the fear I feel is from my lack of understanding of the laws, or if it is the church teaching it, or that the commandment is actually “fear” based. What is fear for me might be seen with Love from others. How do we know?

[Anonymous]

I don’t see how commandments like the WofW are anything but from love. IF addiction and self indulgence would ruin our process, wouldn’t it be loving to give a warning and even more loving to couple it with a promised blessing.

Fear seems to travel with religion but as religions go, I don’t see the mormon church teaching fear based doctrine. I don’t see “Obey or you’ll burn in hell!” or if you go to that church God with punish you! That would be more fear doctrine to me. I think fear is inside of us and is the antithesis of love and I see laws like faith and repentance and forgiveness are ones that help counteract our impulsive fears.

Having said that, healthy fear is important to our physical and spiritual survival so its a gift to us as well.

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

All the laws hang on love, they aren’t done away or replaced by love.

I think I would agree they aren’t done away or replaced by love – but I would also say in their perfect form they actually grow out of love. Maybe love is the tree and the commandments/”law” are the leaves or fruit. We are shown what they are so we’ll know our tree is bearing good fruit, but that doesn’t mean we should try to replicate the fruit by a means other than nourishing the tree. I also acknowledge that some “laws” may be man made, but personally I think most have some eternal element that we would be wise to consider.

Poppyseed wrote:

What about God’s will? When does ones deviations make one a law unto himself? And are those divations driven by love and even motivations of obedience or rebellion? It really boils down to God’s will vs. ours. If we love him, we keep his commandments. At least that is what the scriptures teach. If we discard the law and will of God behind it and justify doing so because of love, I think we miss an important truth.

To me, this is the point. God’s will IS love. “Our will” to me is better expressed as “our SELFISH will”, perfect love overcomes selfishness and aligns our will to God’s. If we discard a portion of Godly love and justify doing so because of some limited understanding of “love”, then I also think we miss an important truth.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Can you explain a little more what you mean:

Rix wrote:

The reason that we struggle with it is that we are also given “commandments” that are not “from love,” but, IMO, are from fear.

I struggle with WoW and tithing. But I wonder if the fear I feel is from my lack of understanding of the laws, or if it is the church teaching it, or that the commandment is actually “fear” based. What is fear for me might be seen with Love from others. How do we know?

Thanks Heber…I would love to ramble a bit more…diagonally, of course!

I’m a bit of a fan of “A Course in Miracles.” It’s a simple teaching that compares “love and fear” to “light and darkness.” Light, as we know, is the thing that exists (as much as anything exists), and the lack of it is darkness. Light can also be refracted to subdivide into colors, reflected back at itself, and absorbed by something else where it is often transformed into other forms of energy.

I see love exactly the same way — metaphorically, and perhaps literally (I’m still contemplating the idea that love IS in fact light, but that’s still out there for me). Then play with the phrase, “God is love,” and amazing insights appear. When one is “filled with love,” we feel highly energized, unified, and in a state of being that could not hurt another. We are, (maybe literally), filled with light.

The lack of love is fear. Fear subdivides into anger, jealousy, hatred, depression, and any other feeling opposite of love. Love allows, fear restricts. Love grows, fear ends. Certain activities attract love (service, prayer, meditation, bonding with others, good music, observance of earth’s beauties, being in nature, etc.), and certain things chase love away (fighting, arguing, etc), and it creates a feeling of fear (lack of love — particularly of self).

I think as far as “obedience” is concerned, we can “obey” from love if, and only if, we do it from an attitude of love…of absolute willingness, not out of compliance of another’s demands.

This paradigm seems to work for me….diagonally, of course!

[Anonymous]

Fascinating insights! Thanks Rix!

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

I don’t see how commandments like the WofW are anything but from love.

First, of course this is my opinion only. I see the WoW (as it has been practiced the last 50 years) as totally fear based. It commands (again, particularly recently) that we NOT partake of certain substances. From my previous post, that falls into the category of “don’t do,” and humans tend to become addicted to “don’t dos.”

I remember Mother Theresa answered the question as to why she didn’t march in protest against war, “as soon as you have a march that is pro-peace, I’ll be there.” The point is, love allows and says “yes.” Fear forbids and says “no.” I think this is a concept difficult to understand in stage three.

Quote:

IF addiction and self indulgence would ruin our process, wouldn’t it be loving to give a warning and even more loving to couple it with a promised blessing

.

Beyond stage three (or maybe 4), the “blessing” is the natural result of living in love…where the desire to do so doesn’t require a reward other than the gift of being in love.

Quote:

Fear seems to travel with religion but as religions go, I don’t see the mormon church teaching fear based doctrine. I don’t see “Obey or you’ll burn in hell!” or if you go to that church God with punish you! That would be more fear doctrine to me.

I agree that Mormonism is not as fear based as most modern dogmatic religions, but nonetheless, quite fear-based as it still focuses on what NOT to do much of the time. But I do see a shift towards love that is encouraging.

Quote:

I think fear is inside of us and is the antithesis of love and I see laws like faith and repentance and forgiveness are ones that help counteract our impulsive fears

I agree and disagree. I see love as the antithesis of fear (as I said above), but I don’t think it is natural. I think it is taught. I DO agree that faith and forgiveness are concepts that help keep us in “love” rather than fear.

Yours diagonally….

[Anonymous]

Wow, I leave for two days and you guys have the mother of all threads!!

I’ve got to agree with Rix, here. Love is the way. If you want to “disobey”, you’ll learn for yourself. Life has a nasty way of doing that. Only love can overcome greed. Only love can overcome indulgence. Only love can overcome selfishness. If I choose to live a greedy, indulgent, selfish lifestyle, life will teach me what’s important. I’ve seen it too many times.

And, as a side note, addiction doesn’t come from a substance. It comes from an emotional disability. Just because drugs and alcohol are the most visible forms of addiction doesn’t mean that the WoW will keep you from becoming an addict. Eating disorders, sexual addiction, OCD, “work-a-holic”, severe depression, etc. are all forms of emotional brokenness that takes shape as an addictive-type behavior. Addicts aren’t made by the first drink or the first smoke. They’re made in the desolation of emotional abuse. (By self, by parents, by church, etc.)

As to the OP, I do believe that life is a parallel journey of finding lasting emotional health and discovering through that emotional health what is “right and wrong”. God can give us the commandments individually through inspiration, just like he did the prophets of old. Or, we can learn the hard way. Either way, we’re going to get the commandments. At least, the ones that are important to us individually and our own personal journey. imho 😳

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

And, as a side note, addiction doesn’t come from a substance. It comes from an emotional disability. Just because drugs and alcohol are the most visible forms of addiction doesn’t mean that the WoW will keep you from becoming an addict. Eating disorders, sexual addiction, OCD, “work-a-holic”, severe depression, etc. are all forms of emotional brokenness that takes shape as an addictive-type behavior. Addicts aren’t made by the first drink or the first smoke. They’re made in the desolation of emotional abuse. (By self, by parents, by church, etc.)

Continuing the side note, that last sentence said loads, Swim! You can’t just post and run like that 😆

Hanging out here in Utah, I see addiction more than I’ve seen anyplace I’ve lived. There is the constant looking outside one’s self to find validation, relief, acceptance, love…etc. I see it in the twice daily big gulps and Red Bulls, going to the Dr. for antidepressants, staying at church to do “just a little more,” locking the den door and turning to porn for excitement, that extra Whopper to feel good for a minute….

…all to fill the hole in the soul created by the belief that they are not good enough in their natural state. Another way to look at love and fear is living from a place of abundance (love) or lack (fear). Even Ghandi, in his attempts to shed ownership of material things, said he was filled with more abundance when he didn’t feel attachment to physical things. When we feel “lack,” we constantly look outside ourselves for validation. Addiction comes when we never get the hole filled, but we keep trying.

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

swimordie wrote:

And, as a side note, addiction doesn’t come from a substance. It comes from an emotional disability. Just because drugs and alcohol are the most visible forms of addiction doesn’t mean that the WoW will keep you from becoming an addict. Eating disorders, sexual addiction, OCD, “work-a-holic”, severe depression, etc. are all forms of emotional brokenness that takes shape as an addictive-type behavior. Addicts aren’t made by the first drink or the first smoke. They’re made in the desolation of emotional abuse. (By self, by parents, by church, etc.)

Continuing the side note, that last sentence said loads, Swim! You can’t just post and run like that 😆

Hanging out here in Utah, I see addiction more than I’ve seen anyplace I’ve lived. There is the constant looking outside one’s self to find validation, relief, acceptance, love…etc. I see it in the twice daily big gulps and Red Bulls, going to the Dr. for antidepressants, staying at church to do “just a little more,” locking the den door and turning to porn for excitement, that extra Whopper to feel good for a minute….

…all to fill the hole in the soul created by the belief that they are not good enough in their natural state. Another way to look at love and fear is living from a place of abundance (love) or lack (fear). Even Ghandi, in his attempts to shed ownership of material things, said he was filled with more abundance when he didn’t feel attachment to physical things. When we feel “lack,” we constantly look outside ourselves for validation. Addiction comes when we never get the hole filled, but we keep trying.

This one hits me in the bread basket. Not knowing that I am good enough is my whole (insert appropriate explative here) problem. (sigh) Rix…. I take it back. All I need IS love. lol It seems the lack of love is what causes all the trauma in the first place! And it make sense to me that love should heal it.

Addiction is an interesting trap because our brains get focused on stopping the pain rather than really meeting the need. The need itself is often genuine and valid. It just seems to me that we get suckered into selling freedom for temporary relief and not really learning the lessons of love.

I don’t know about any of you, but I honestly think that learning the lessons of Love are some of the hardest. And not needing outside validation seems to be one of my biggest failings. Maybe its the churches fault. There are parts of me that do credit my Utah confined mormon upbringing for my current issues. But I don’t find the same flaw in the doctrine itself….just in the faulty understanding of teachers and parents and others. But then I think more broadly than that and reflect back to the war in heaven and realize the war is still being fought and that there are still casualties. It would make sense to me that where truth is, intense temptations would follow.

So…I need to learn to love myself and others too. What and where is the best place to do that? If I posture myself outside the law, can I learn the lessons I need to become better? I am not convinced.

Loving myself. Hardest dang thing I ever attempted. And pain has certainly blocked my vision. But I really really want and need to learn these lessons. UGH! I love the gospel and I feel I have to live it for love to happen. But I can’t deal with the dang church! It ties me in knots! How can those two things be there at the same time???

This is one of those moments when going to get a beer makes perfect sense……except that then I would be going to the liquor store stop the pain instead of meeting the need. And there it is again, Rix’s point being made. (Deep exhaustive exhale)

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