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I think the most likely changes, if any, would be the addition of “harmful drugs.” Many people read that in these as it is. I don’t see them budging on tea/coffee (even of the iced variety) nor do I see trying to enforce any meat restrictions (in part to distance ourselves from Catholicism). DarkJedi wrote:
I think the most likely changes, if any, would be the addition of “harmful drugs.” Many people read that in these as it is. I don’t see them budging on tea/coffee (even of the iced variety) nor do I see trying to enforce any meat restrictions (in part to distance ourselves from Catholicism).
It’s taught by missionaries. I think it’s even in PMG and the pamphlets they use.
Edit: page 11 of
this pamphletdande48 wrote:
All-in-all, I think the WoW is wonderful. We would all be better off living it, than not. And this is coming from a mild-agnositic, who takes very little from the LDS church literally. Sure, you’ll probably be just fine with the occasional cup of wine. But judging by my junk food habbits, I would have a hard time limiting myself. Better not to try…I also remember it was viewed as the #1 most important commandment by seminary student survey, several years back. Several ticks above the law of chastity. It’s something most members are proud of. The church isn’t going to change policy, because a few among us “don’t like it”.If anything, they will add more to the section of recommendations, like the part about “eating meat sparingly”, rather than modifying their list of “don’t”s. Actually one of the points in this newspaper article was that it looks like younger generations of Mormons are already becoming more tolerant of the idea of not conforming to current LDS teachings in this case. For example, in a poll done by Jana Riess she found that only 40% of millennials thought that not drinking alcohol was essential to being a “good Mormon” compared to 51% for Generation X and more than 75% for baby boomers and the silent generation. I do think that one of the main reasons that the WoW will probably not be changed anytime soon is simply because most of the active members including the top leaders have already accepted it and gotten used to it the way it is.
However, I disagree with the idea that it is only a few people that don’t like the WoW; in reality I suspect there are literally millions of Church members that already drink and/or smoke, it’s just that most of them are inactive and many of them have almost no chance of returning to Church activity as long as they don’t feel ready to give up these habits and feel like not drinking or smoking is a big part of what being LDS is all about. On my mission trying to get people to give up drinking, smoking and/or coffee so they could be baptized was a real hassle and many of them quickly returned to their old habits anyway even after they were baptized.
ydeve wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:
I think the most likely changes, if any, would be the addition of “harmful drugs.” Many people read that in these as it is. I don’t see them budging on tea/coffee (even of the iced variety) nor do I see trying to enforce any meat restrictions (in part to distance ourselves from Catholicism).
It’s taught by missionaries. I think it’s even in PMG and the pamphlets they use.
Edit: page 11 of
this pamphlet
And we used to teach investigators that caffeinated soda was against the WoW (in the dark ages when I served). The point is, neither of them are in there.
I would love for the Church to change the WoW to the following: – no tobacco/alcohol in Church
– no getting drunk
– no getting high
And then enforce it mildly, like, we don’t smoke in the Church buildings or during Church activities, but we aren’t going to keep you from getting baptized if you smoke on your own. Drunkenness/drug use is a bit different for me. Since these involve personality and behavioral changes, I can see keeping these on the no-no side, since religion is a communal experience (in our case and many others), but with a kind approach, rather than line-in-the-sand methods used today.
I think having a beer or a glass of wine is far different from getting drunk, so sure, drink a bit here and there, that’s fine. Socialize with your friends/neighbors, but keep it in check.
As a first step, I would like to see it removed from the requirements for baptism (and, ideally, Priesthood ordination) and kept only as a temple requirement. That would solve so many problems, particularly with missionary work.
On Own Now wrote:I think having a beer or a glass of wine is far different from getting drunk, so sure, drink a bit here and there, that’s fine. Socialize with your friends/neighbors, but keep it in check.
I would agree with this…and want to see them bring it back to some gospel teaching that matters. No tea is simply obedience, not really teaching us anything other than that.OON is suggesting an important concept for young people to remember…that taking substances that impair our thinking or judgment is not in line with God’s plan to stay alert and aware and seeking the spirit always in our lives.
Living dependent on tobacco, or on alcohol daily is not going to strengthen your spirit. That is in line with a gospel lesson.
Not having a glass of wine at dinner with friends honestly has no teaching moment that I can think of except…”hey…I’m mormon”.
Heber13 wrote:
On Own Now wrote:I think having a beer or a glass of wine is far different from getting drunk, so sure, drink a bit here and there, that’s fine. Socialize with your friends/neighbors, but keep it in check.
I would agree with this…and want to see them bring it back to some gospel teaching that matters. No tea is simply obedience, not really teaching us anything other than that.OON is suggesting an important concept for young people to remember…that taking substances that impair our thinking or judgment is not in line with God’s plan to stay alert and aware and seeking the spirit always in our lives.
Living dependent on tobacco, or on alcohol daily is not going to strengthen your spirit. That is in line with a gospel lesson.
Not having a glass of wine at dinner with friends honestly has no teaching moment that I can think of except…”hey…I’m mormon”.
I’m down with this “teach them correct principles” concept relating to the WoW.
:thumbup: Old Timer wrote:
As a first step, I would like to see it removed from the requirements for baptism (and, ideally, Priesthood ordination) and kept only as a temple requirement.That would solve so many problems, particularly with missionary work.
That’s a sensible solution. It’ll never fly, Orville! There have been studies that show that the more you require of people in a religion, the better your retention. The problem is that maybe that’s not going to be true forever. This current generation really challenges things in a new way. I’m not sure they will keep getting the same results from that strategy. Plus, there’s something to be said for the fact that WoW was always supposed to be a guideline.hawkgrrrl wrote:
Old Timer wrote:
As a first step, I would like to see it removed from the requirements for baptism (and, ideally, Priesthood ordination) and kept only as a temple requirement.That would solve so many problems, particularly with missionary work.
That’s a sensible solution. It’ll never fly, Orville! There have been studies that show that the more you require of people in a religion, the better your retention. The problem is that maybe that’s not going to be true forever. This current generation really challenges things in a new way. I’m not sure they will keep getting the same results from that strategy. Plus, there’s something to be said for the fact that WoW was always supposed to be a guideline.
Didn’t those studies show that there is a point where requiring more and requiring more eventually loses a certain group, while strengthening a group? It doesn’t strengthen everyone equally.
At some point…doing things just to require sacrifice wears off, and there is a correction or response.
Heber13 wrote:
… No tea is simply obedience, not really teaching us anything other than that. …
The Right Honourable, member of the Order of the Garter, member of Her Majesty’s Most Honourable Privy Council, even Charles “the Earl” Grey. I hear they named a harmful drug after him.
There is a quote in the Journal of Discourses by BY dated Oct 9, 1865 that said:
Quote:The Lord gave me strength to lay aside tobacco, and it is very rarely indeed that I taste tea or coffee; yet I have no objection to aged persons, when they are fatigued and feel infirm, taking a little stimulus that will do them good.
JD 11:140-141
It is interesting to see how the WoW has developed over time. It is similar to other doctrines & teachings of the church that change & develop over the
years to what we have today. It wasn’t a single revelation at a particular moment in time. I wonder if the 10 commandments developed over time?
Quote:Didn’t those studies show that there is a point where requiring more and requiring more eventually loses a certain group, while strengthening a group? It doesn’t strengthen everyone equally.
I’m not sure which studies are being referred to, but I read a couple done by Dr. Robert Caldini that were along the same lines. The conclusion was, the more you commit to and sacrifice for a group, the stronger your commitment will be, and the harder it will be to break away. With the Church, didn’t any of you go the process of thinking, “I’ve given up so much for the Church. It HAS to be TRUE!”
Devil’sAdvocate, I wasn’t able to find the study you mentioned. Would you mind sending me the link? I’d find it interesting. And I fully agree that the majority members of the LDS church drink. I was referring to the active members of the Church, which I understand is unfair sampling. But they are also the most prominent members to the Church leadership. An “apostate” who drinks and doesn’t believe in the Word of Wisdom, isn’t going to change any policy. “You’ve lost your testimony of it, because you haven’t been keeping it.” That’s what they’d say.
dande48 wrote:Devil’sAdvocate, I wasn’t able to find the study you mentioned. Would you mind sending me the link? I’d find it interesting. And I fully agree that the majority members of the LDS church drink. I was referring to the active members of the Church, which I understand is unfair sampling. But they are also the most prominent members to the Church leadership. An “apostate” who drinks and doesn’t believe in the Word of Wisdom, isn’t going to change any policy. “You’ve lost your testimony of it, because you haven’t been keeping it.” That’s what they’d say.
I was just talking about the article in the Salt Lake Tribune that I linked to in the first post of this thread and one part of that was that they mentioned poll results from Jana Riess about what looks like changing attitudes about the WoW for different generations. I’m not sure if these results are published somewhere else as well.
dande48 wrote:
I’m not sure which studies are being referred to, but I read a couple done by Dr. Robert Caldini that were along the same lines. The conclusion was, the more you commit to and sacrifice for a group, the stronger your commitment will be, and the harder it will be to break away. With the Church, didn’t any of you go the process of thinking, “I’ve given up so much for the Church. It HAS to be TRUE!”
Honestly, no. I thought, “I’ve given up so much. Surely that merits a little help!”
My mind seems to not regard my past or future actions much when determining truth. That might be me internalizing lessons from utility theory, where it’s suboptimal to do so, or I might just be wired that way, or both. In any case, I seem to be one of those for whom obedience for it’s own sake is less effective.
That’s not to say it’s ineffective. Not drinking alcohol has certainly kept me a little more isolated since I graduated and moved out of Utah. Not drinking coffee has certainly made me stand out since moving to Europe.
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