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I apologize that I did not take the time to read through all of the post on this thread, but the ones I did read through did not note the one main fact–that God and Jesus are separate beings. The whole basis of the church falls on that idea, does it not? God & Jesus as separate egos (separate beings) is a distinct teaching in Mormonism, differing from mainstream protestant Christianity. I am not sure I would say the whole Church hangs on that one teaching, or that we can reduce all of Mormonism to that idea. That seems like it oversimplifies things too much.
I suppose if it were possible to prove that God is truly a trinitarian / Nicaean Creed type of being, it would be problematic for Mormonism. But … not really sure how anyone can prove something as far out and transcendent as that, in a “scientific” or historical sense.
Thanks for chiming in Curt! These are the types of questions that help clarify the discussion. To me, a core strength of “pure Mormonism” is that it cannot fall on any one idea. We do not have any creeds that are the basis of our belief. The concept of continuing revelation, and the association that we are given more information as our capacity to hold it increases, lends to the principle that
anythingcan change. The core is that we always look for “further light and knowledge” and we believe in continuing revelation. Personally, I also appreciate that some things are revealed spiritually and some things physically. Roy, I absolutely agree with 1. Revelation/ receive truth —- let it come from from where it may, and 2. friendship, as being pure mormonism. Roy wrote:3) With less clear source documents, Don argues for “
Relief“as the third principle.
Explain further please. Not real sure what “relief” means as a third principle of pure mormonism.
cwald wrote:Explain further please. Not real sure what “relief” means as a third principle of pure mormonism.
Charity. Working to relieve the suffering of others. I think that fits in well with Joseph’s dreams of a Utopian community and the Kingdom of God on Earth, aka “Zion.”
Prayer is a true principle of Mormonism. Prayer is the soul’s longing to be with deity again and to commune with the infinite.
As Daniel prayed against the decree of those princes that sought to go against him, it was amazing how the Lord sent an angel to shut up the mouths of the Lions. The principle of prayer withstood any legal decree, thus it must be a true principle of Mormonism.
jamison wrote:The principle of prayer withstood any legal decree, thus it must be a true principle of Mormonism.
Regardless of whether or not the account of Daniel and the lion’s den is fact or fiction, I agree that prayer is part of mormonism, as Ray included in his original post as point#2. Revelation is definitely part of mormonism, and is as complex and paradoxical as all the other principles.
I too am happy with the hyper link to the Sunstone article, that answered a lot of questions for me, but also reconfirmed the greatness of Mormonism in the pursuit of all truth and friendship and living in harmony with our fellowmen. Additionally, I found an extension of the friendship and relief and the pursuit of some type of theocracy or utopian ideal that is founded upon similar principles. In my pursuit to understand the Council of Fifty, I searched Wikipedia and then went from a hyper link to a BYU Studies article entitled “Theory and Practice of Church and State During the Brigham Young Era” by J. Keith Melville, dated 1960- BYU Studies3 (1):33-55. Within this article was a quote by Joseph Smith during the Nauvoo era of the Church that caught my attention. Joseph coined the phrase THEODEMOCRACY. Such a concept had eluded me up to this point. In relationship to Constitutional matters and the true governance of Church and State within a functioning political realm, that this is a true fundamental principle of Mormonism. I quote Joseph Smith: “I go emphatically, virtuously, and humanely, for a THEODEMOCRACY, where God and the people hold the power to conduct the affairs of men in righteousness.” This quote originally came from Times and Seasons-V, p. 510. I know that from Joseph Smith on this has been part of the agenda of the brethren in the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve for a long time, even with the end to the Council of Fifty, it seems that as members of the Church we are supposed to vote for people that carry such an ideal in their hearts and minds. Additionally, the original Council of Fifty was not only consisting of Latter-Day Saints. Although this concept of THEODEMOCRACY may appear to be missing in political discourse, I believe it is a fundamental principle of Mormonism. jamison wrote:I quote Joseph Smith: “I go emphatically, virtuously, and humanely, for a THEODEMOCRACY, where God and the people hold the power to conduct the affairs of men in righteousness.”
Well, it hasn’t worked all that well for the countries in the middle east that believe in it.
A theo-democracy is a great idea where people and their religious-political leaders are charitable toward all – or in an isolated society where there really is only one believed religion. Where the leaders succumb to the “sad experience (of). . . nearly all men . . . (and) exercise unrighteous dominion” (which has happened in every instance throughout our history (except the city of Enoch, which was kept from that end by being translated – if you take the story literally) or the people use the “democracy” part to silence dissent, however, there doesn’t end up being any practical difference between a theo-democracy and a dictatorship (of one leader or one majority).
Seriously, a good theo-democracy is just like a benevolent monarchy in practical terms – and a bad theo-democracy is just like tribal domination in practical terms.
Frankly, I don’t think there is a political system that is part of pure Mormonism – at least, not in practical terms for mortality.
This was perhaps the most dangerous and hated element of early Mormonism. That of community building, the combination of church and state, block voting, and overwhelming immigration. R. Bushman makes mention of this in referencing the grand vision of Zion where over every door is read “Holiness to the Lord.” He asks, (paraphrase)”what of those that don’t want “Holiness to the Lord” emblazoned across their doorsteps?”
Perhaps Joseph was emulating the political system of heaven but it didn’t seem to translate well to a fallen world. I believe the church has distanced itself from such activities…
:think: …at least until after the millennium.I absolutely loved the Sunstone article. It is really, really good. I saved it and am going to study it later. I’m surprised no one mentioned 3 Nephi 27: 13-21 that mention some concepts and doctrines like: Christ did the will of God, atonement for all mankind, mankind judged for their works, repentance, justice of God, only those sanctified and pure enter into God’s kingdom.
Many years ago when I was just starting into my crisis of faith, I had my first of two “revelations” which were very helpful to me. It came when I asked the same question about the what the Principles of the Gospel were. The answer that came to me was eight words that helped carry me through the long dry spell. They were totally unlike anything I had ever thought or read about, came suddenly one afternoon. II wrote immediately wrote them down and never felt any need to modify or amend them in any way since. They were useful to me for many years, and although I haven’t thought of them in some time, I still have a clear memory some 40 years later. They are:
Truth It is important, some of it has been revealed, “there is a law irrevocably decreed upon which all blessings are predicated”
Eternity In one form or another we have all lived, and we always will live
Love The greatest commandment to love God and one another
Perfection Be ye therefore perfect …. I suspect perfection may be more a process than a destination. It certainly is during mortality.
God God lives, we are his children and can some day be divine. See C.S. Lewis below.
Free Agency The War in Heaven established that in mortality, mankind would be free to make his own decisions, even if wrong.
Individuality We are all valuable sons & daughters of our Heavenly Father. We are individually known and loved by him, and will never be assimilated into some cosmic blob.
Joy Man is that he might have joy. All creatures great and small are created that they might have joy “within the measure of their creation.”
C.S. Lewis:
“Its a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare.
All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or the other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics.
There are no ordinary people.You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations – these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, marry, snub, and exploit – immortal horrors or everlasting splendors…next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, out neighbor is the holiest object presented to our senses.”
Brian Johnston wrote:
I suppose if it were possible to prove that God is truly a trinitarian / Nicaean Creed type of being, it would be problematic for Mormonism. But … not really sure how anyone can prove something as far out and transcendent as that, in a “scientific” or historical sense.There are some verses in the BoM which seem to imply this…
GBSmith wrote:I would add, though I don’t really understand it, the eastern orthodox doctrine of theosis, that Christ’s atonement was to enable us to become like God. I think it’s different that the idea of progression and exaltation and more like giving us the ability to be become what we are meant to be.
This resonates well with me.
As Brad Wilcox recently stated: We aren’t “earning” heaven, we are “learning” heaven.
Obviously as we learn we will be progressing in a way, but I like the idea that we aren’t merely checking off ordinances in our “progression” to heaven.
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