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Bill Reel just release an interview with an author Margaret Johnston on here book, “Faith Beyond Belief: Stories of Good People Who Left Their Church Behind.” It is released to “Premium Subscribers” (so Bill may release it to the public later – or not. His call). I won’t go into the whole book, but I will say that she is not LDS nor writing just for an LDS audience. She is writing more about findings across all religions. She does talk about 4 different stages people can go through. It is an oversimplification, but her stage 3 is a Fowler stage 4 or maybe 5. But now to my point.
She mentioned briefly that in her stage 1 (not really committed) the person is selfish and just worried about themselves.
In her stage 2 “believer” , the person is worried about “my group” and “my group is more important than everyone else.” It is about “my group being right.”
In her stage 3 “questioner” has a broader world view. “Their group” is more all of mankind.
That really resonated with me. I would say the “crisis” portion of my FC calmed down about a year ago and moved more into a faith transition. At the same time my areas of things I am concerned about has really shifted and intensified to worrying less about my salvation and more an urgent and burning need to make an impact with people in the world. For Christmas I only asked for one $25 item and instead made donations to the Liahona Foundation and Doctors with boarders. I just listened to
modern day sex trafficking and slaveryI think I have talked with Silent Dawning on this topic a bit, but for others that went through a faith crisis did you have that same change from not focusing on your own “progress towards perfection” then after your FC you lost interest in that and more concern for all of your fellow humans?
To whom shall I turn for guidance? I lost confidence in all authorities. I am still trying to reframe from it. mom3 wrote:To whom shall I turn for guidance? I lost confidence in all authorities. I am still trying to reframe from it.
For me generally I am my authority, with some guidance from God (my conscience and I will leave the open even for a spiritual guidance). I know not everyone here has been able to exit their FC without becoming an atheist / agnostic.LookingHard wrote:In her stage 3 “questioner” has a broader world view. “Their group” is more all of mankind.That really resonated with me. I would say the “crisis” portion of my FC calmed down about a year ago and moved more into a faith transition. At the same time my areas of things I am concerned about has really shifted and intensified to worrying less about my salvation and more an urgent and burning need to make an impact with people in the world. For Christmas I only asked for one $25 item and instead made donations to the Liahona Foundation and Doctors with boarders. I just listened to modern day sex trafficking and slavery and I am working on how I might skip lunches and give that money to help this group. I am glad this is anonymous otherwise I would feel that I am being boastful by writing this.
I applaud your efforts.
For me this takes two forms:
1) Tithing. I paid tithing becuase I was hoping to secure temporal, spiritual, and eternal blessings. My motivation was very selfish. Now that I do not believe in these promised tithing blessings I keep the money to myself – just as selfishly.
2) Service. I have always been more free with my service and I believe that the LDS church has raised me up to be a service oriented person. I serve as treasurer for my local Toastmasters club and the area Special Education PTA. I have been asked to serve as spokesman for the Emergency Preparedness Fair. The First Christian Church where my children attend Pioneer Club was short on teachers last year and I team-taught a class for the entire year. I was just realeased from my LDS calling of teaching the primary children because the ward schedule changed and this conflicted with my work schedule. I was asked to be a helper for the YM on wednesday nights and I declined. We already have family activities on wednesday nights and this would take me away from that. I also felt that I wasn’t really needed in the calling but they were just trying to give me a responsibility for the sake of “everyone needs a responsibility.”
So in some ways my LDS participation was always selfish and this selfishness continues in other forms. In other ways my LDS participation tied in to being helpful and making meaningful contributions to my community and this aptitude to volunteer and contribute continues in other forms.
Lately I have started to lose interest to some silly stuff that Mormons do because I see them as a much smaller part of what is really important in life.
Quote:
For me generally I am my authority, with some guidance from God (my conscience and I will leave the open even for a spiritual guidance)I am one of the people I am unsure about. Some things I am nearly certain on, but other things I am suspicious. I don’t mind not having an authority, but I move a lot slower now on my claims to anything.
LookingHard wrote:for others that went through a faith crisis did you have that same change from not focusing on your own “progress towards perfection” then after your FC you lost interest in that and more concern for all of your fellow humans?
My path was just a bit different. I do identify with the phases, although I never really had a “crisis” and I never went through an angry phase in any way and I never went into a non-believing or non-caring phase either.I guess it was just a faith transition is the best way to put it as I was dealing with how religion fit into the events of my life that were changing.
Not as much around my own perfection vs the concern for others, but more a transition around what church authority and truth claims meant to me, from a viewpoint that was not making sense with my reality to a more reasonable view for me. I guess how I viewed myself or others was a byproduct, but not much of a difference or focus before or after.
I can’t say that I care about making an impact on the world. I don’t believe I can. I think I’m pretty much limited to making impacts on individuals, and that’s ok. What am I concerned about post FC? Not a he77 of a lot actually.
mom3 wrote:Quote:
For me generally I am my authority, with some guidance from God (my conscience and I will leave the open even for a spiritual guidance)I am one of the people I am unsure about. Some things I am nearly certain on, but other things I am suspicious. I don’t mind not having an authority, but I move a lot slower now on my claims to anything.
In my case I projected the uncertainty that I had about myself onto everyone. If I can’t be certain about myself how can I really have confidence in others being certain about themselves? In a world with nothing but people that really don’t know what they are doing when it all comes down to it… well I might as well be my own authority. I’m equally qualified for the job.
So, what do I care about. For some reason I’m more likely than before to try to make other people’s experience my own. I want to step into their shoes. Keeping things related to church: I might watch GC with the intent of listening to the lessons being taught out of a concern about how they will effect the community as a whole. There may be talks that don’t apply to me at all but I try to step into the shoes of the people that the talk does apply to and ask myself how the talk might make me feel. I feel concern about the direction that the body of saints is headed – for their own wellbeing. I want them to progress and be happy.
I guess I’m concerned about the world, but again, I interface with the world at the micro level.
I don’t remember the conversation where we talked about this, but definitely, I consider all of humanity my service focus now. In fact, I feel that our church service is focused too much on serving the organization to the point it’s considered an inconvenient hassle to serve people outside the church. This belief started when a missionary told me his mission was one of service to others. I thought — but you are convincing people to join the church, pay 10% of their income to it for the rest of their life, and invest most of their free time helping it grow and succeed!
Good question LH. I am concerned about anything after this life, whether or not there’d be anything at all. I still believe, I still hope, but my doubt that has always been there is more pronounced. I’m not agnostic, but i wonder more. I’ve never been a great home teacher, and that hasn’t changed.
The real change is I openly question authority. Before I would accept particular counsel without objectively thinking about it. Now I am actually changing the way or ward does things by voicing my opinions concerns and showing others where the major flaws are.
For a few years our ward has had a great scout fundraiser. Everyone was involved, the boys were actively planning and executing it. The problem came when the adults in charge of the money started making promises on how the funds would be used, it wasn’t very transparent and the promises weren’t being fulfilled. I heard all of the parents complaints that they were still paying the full amount even with all of the fundraising. We’re no longer doing that type of fundraising where before I would have just continued to slug through while seeing all of these problems and people getting upset, just saying that it will all work out in the end. I am more concerned about people in the church being offended and stepped on than I was before. I am more concerned with not following blindly ( I never should have in the first place).
Elder Bednar came to our stake and spoke, one of the things he said and he’s said it at other times, was we give up our free agency after we are baptized, because we have now have made a commitment to be obedient. This was the first time I recall ever saying that i completely disagree with an apostle. I understand what he is saying and his rationale, but i don’t agree. This was when i also changed what my definition of what a prophet and prophecy is.
LDS_Scoutmaster wrote:The real change is I openly question authority. …
Elder Bednar came to our stake and spoke, one of the things he said and he’s said it at other times, was we give up our free agency after we are baptized, because we have now have made a commitment to be obedient. This was the first time I recall ever saying that i completely disagree with an apostle. I understand what he is saying and his rationale, but i don’t agree. This was when i also changed what my definition of what a prophet and prophecy is.
Good comments. I’d say I feel similar. I’m more of an independent thinker to what feels right to me, and sometimes perhaps I’m just not understanding what leaders are saying, but I give myself permission to disagree until I understand better. I try to stay humble to realize I want them to teach me and help me see things. But I firmly believe the spirit will do that, and sometimes it just doesn’t seem the spirit is telling me to agree with things just because I committed to the church at age 8.
I have learned, sometimes I simply disagree and that’s ok. Sometimes I even think God wants varied opinions in the church. Because it’s how I act about those disagreements that is part of the learning for me also.
Relatively little. I believe God knows my heart and won’t hold me to a higher standard than is possible for me.
Heber13 wrote:LDS_Scoutmaster wrote:The real change is I openly question authority. …
Elder Bednar came to our stake and spoke, one of the things he said and he’s said it at other times, was we give up our free agency after we are baptized, because we have now have made a commitment to be obedient. This was the first time I recall ever saying that i completely disagree with an apostle. I understand what he is saying and his rationale, but i don’t agree. This was when i also changed what my definition of what a prophet and prophecy is.
Good comments. I’d say I feel similar. I’m more of an independent thinker to what feels right to me, and sometimes perhaps I’m just not understanding what leaders are saying, but I give myself permission to disagree until I understand better. I try to stay humble to realize I want them to teach me and help me see things. But I firmly believe the spirit will do that, and sometimes it just doesn’t seem the spirit is telling me to agree with things just because I committed to the church at age 8.
I have learned, sometimes I simply disagree and that’s ok. Sometimes I even think God wants varied opinions in the church. Because it’s how I act about those disagreements that is part of the learning for me also.
I would agree with both Heber and Scoutmaster on my relationship with leadership. I used to see them in between God and I. Now I see them on the side giving me advice. I need to listen to it and ask God if it applies to me. If I don’t feel it does, I just say, “No thanks.”Agreed — I once heralded them as near divine oracles for advice for my life. I now see them as largely goodhearted men who are giving a lot of their time as managers in the LDS church. I feel a bit of pity for how much time they are expected to put into the church for so little tangible reward. I’ve seen some who are totally worn out from the experience. My ex-Bishop twice removed was that way I don’t trust them with my true feelings anymore. That carries too much risk, and their role as judge, jury and executioner on so many issues makes it safer to follow Roy’s advice of giving “vague hope” for activity in the future, without cutting off one’s options. People also tend to view character as permanent, so disclosing how I really feel would likely put me in a box that would be difficult to break out of. I think I am more forgiving of myself than people in general are forgiving of myself. One snapshot of “bad behavior” at one moment in time can ruin your reputation. As they say, you never get a second chance to make a first impression. And that first impression lasts a long, long time in the church.
I don’t really now what the future holds in the afterlife now. But I look at it with curiousity and actually a form of relief eventually. I have challenges that will disappear with death. I will also miss the many joys that our theology implies will cease to exist after this life. And I hope that I wont’ be condemned for the ways in which I don’t follow the LDS textbook. There is some fear of that. But even as a faithful Mormon, I had tremendous fear all the sacrifice would be for naught as well. Given some of the utter joy and self-actualization I’ve experienced in this life since moving forward on a different paradigm, I have as much fear of looking back on my Mormon life with regret for unecessary labor and sacrifice, as I do for condemnatation.
Pick your fear under such conditions of uncertainty.
SilentDawning wrote:Agreed — I once heralded them as near divine oracles for advice for my life. I now see them as largely goodhearted men who are giving a lot of their time as managers in the LDS church. I feel a bit of pity for how much time they are expected to put into the church for so little tangible reward. I’ve seen some who are totally worn out from the experience.
I like that framing – or should I say describing how I used to feel (not that I like that framing).I feel I am very much past being angry at leaders. I actually have a LOT of respect for what people sacrifice for the church. Even with the upper leaders getting a salary / stipend – many of them are basically giving up a retirement! But I still really struggle with how strong the line of “we are always 100% the word of the Lord.” I would appreciate a bit more humility and understanding what that can cause.
For me it’s the double standard….when things are going well, leaders are inspired, when they are not, it’s no reflection on the church, just imperfect men. I realized a couple years ago that I don’t have this same angst in other organizations, because they are not making the grandiose claims our church does about their leadership and the organization as a whole.
Post FC, one concern I have is that leaders may force my hand by really grilling me about what I think and believe, and leadership roulette — what could come of it. I firmly believe flying under the radar is the best way to handle current leaders, and not giving much information — until one is ready to make an about face.
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