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I guess I’m more in the #3 boat. I believe Joseph Smith felt the spirit in the grove and came to feel that the fullness of Christ’s gospel was no longer on the earth. Then, as time went on, he began to embellish what actually happened. And the more he embellished it, and the more he re-told it, the more he began to actually believe that it actually happened that way. Like others have mentioned, he was a ‘visionary’ man, and was also a great storyteller. And when you look at his family’s history, I don’t find it strange that they would have gone right along with such an outrageous story. They already believed that Joseph had the power to see gold buried inside the hills with his ‘spiritual eyes,’ even though his digging had never been successful. They were always more than willing to come up with some excuse, like as soon as they got close to the treasure, the earth swallowed it up even deeper. So, did Joseph really go into the woods and pray with a sincere heart? I believe he did. Did the spirit speak to him? I don’t see why not. Did he see Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, or any other angelic beings? That’s where I have to pull out the bull- card.
The very logical, skeptical person I am leans toward there being no vision at all. Many sources say he doesn’t share his experience with family and it was 12 years before his story comes about. He was a grand manipulator that created this story that gave people chills, out of necessity to cause people to believe, this was necessary for his power and church to grow. The part of my spirit that wants so badly to believe says, number 2. He didn’t share his, to date, most spiritual experience with anyone because it was special and sacred. Just as we don’t share all of our spiritual experiences with others. Just as it took me 2+ years to even address with my husband my spiritually altered path.
My testimony didn’t fall apart with the first vision, but it was added to the list of things to question once it disintegrated in so many other areas dealing with JS.
Mostly #2. I find some days I lean towards considering 3 is a part of it, but mostly because of the meaning and value I place on what happened in the visions…I go back to #2 as a basis for my faith. I think it was similar to Emanuael Swedenborg’s experiences in 1744. God wanted to reveal truths. A lot of what happens after is dependent greatly on the seer and what that seer decides to do with the experience.
I’d say 2, although I used to say one. Maybe the grove was considered sacred just because Joseph had the experience, whether is was physical or visionary. Ilovechrist77 wrote:I’d say 2, although I used to say one. Maybe the grove was considered sacred just because Joseph had the experience, whether is was physical or visionary.
Yes…I think that about the grove. I think it is a way for us to reverence the experience. Kind of like rebuilding the Smith home outside the grove…it wasn’t physically the exact home…but by rebuilding it and sending tours through there…we pay our respects to the idea and pass on teachings through the generations.LookingHard wrote:nibbler wrote:LookingHard wrote:If I have to select a integer response, then #2 is the closest.
If you’re only entertaining integers I guess you’d probably be even less likely to go with √-4
Come on -be rational or at least real!
Get thee to a math geeks’ punnery:lolno: Quote:What are your beliefs about the First Vision?
I doubt there will ever be a definitive, verifiable, objective answer to the reality of the First Vision. There will always be room for doubt, as there is room for faith. Anything beyond that is speculation.So for my mortal experience, I ask what are the relative benefits of belief and disbelief?
Benefits of Disbelief:1 free day every week
A 10+% reduction in expenses
additional responsibilities absolved
Nobody telling me how to lead my life.
Can free myself from concern about polygamy, bigotry, corporatism, and dogmatism
Benefits of BeliefFostering a healthy lifestyle, and above average longevity
Opportunity to regularly meet with good people who try to help others
Encouragement to get a secular education
Belong to a Church who’s divorce rate among temple marriages are among the lowest of any group
Strong sense of moral and ethical values that have kept me out of a peck of troubles
A cosmology that gives me hope that and meaning to life, a plausible sounding explanation for the pain and suffering of mortality
(see the God Who Weeps)
I’m amazed the Church has survived the trauma of tar & feathering, numerous legal and mortal attacks on JS, his assassination, rape and
pillage, federal troupes marching on SLC, church property confiscated by the federal government in an attempt to bankrupt the Church
and force it to change its doctrine and practice of polygamy, Abraham Smoot denied a seat in the Senate for 6 years, the Great
Depression, a doctrinal about-face on the Blacks and the Priesthood. Current doctrine is evolving on gays, and the Church is doing a
remarkable job of unearthing its history (yet not recognized by the Correlation Committee).
Now the Church has 15 Million members with congregations in 160 countries, the only American church that has more members outside
the country than inside. It’s one of few churches who have no paid ministry. Compared to other groups its members are more knowledgeable about the OT & NT, are more charitable, live longer, and have lower divorce rate (as compared to temple marriages).
2. 3.2 cwald wrote:3.2
ok…i don’t really disagree, but i give the guy the benefit of the doubt.i guess it also boils down to whether there are “beings” like god, a resurrected jesus, or angels. maybe all visions are hallucinations. certainly MSU applies in a lot of instances.
Sure. I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt as well. I’m just a little bit jaded right now. -sigh- The best i can do, with the benefit of doubt, is 2.8
Quote:certainly MSU applies in a lot of instances.
I’ve never heard about a connection to Michigan State University.
cwald wrote:Sure. I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt as well. I’m just a little bit jaded right now.
-sigh- The best i can do, with the benefit of doubt, is 2.8
Hmmm. I take it you won’t be attending a full-year course on the teachings of the 14 fundamentals and the guy who spoke them?😆 I think that’s a safe bet, wayfarer. i probably won’t either…although i was thinking about blogging a flipside version of each lesson…too ambitios though, and a waste of enerhy.
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