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I will be giving the HP lesson tomorrow. The lesson will be based on (2) General Conference talks. I will be using primarily one:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/god-is-at-the-helm?lang=eng&_r=1 I do not like lessons like this. The reason is you are asked to review a GC talk with the doctrine presented. There will be very little
discussion and no new ideas or open debate. (I need a nap already.)
A new Introduction by wileecoyote49 titled: Where is the true church of Jesus Christ? gave me a new idea as the conclusion for this lesson.
That is: What do you expect from our Church? I’m wondering how people on this board would answer.
We’ve probably discussed it before on other postings. If yes, please give me a reference. Or, answer it yourself.
There was a time when I started with my FC where I wanted help from my Bishop & other leaders to help me understand why I’m going through
this situation. I expected insight & comfort. I got nervous questions & generalizations.
Since I’ve been on this site & starting going to church again, I have come to some conclusions:
From wileecoyote’s intro, this was my reply:
Quote:Today I believe that:
– This life & the experiences we face are difficult. This is part of the design.
– I don’t look to the leadership (or the general membership) to give me guidance, comfort or peace.
– I found small callings where I can serve & contribute on my own terms.
– I found close friends & relatives who I confide it & know that our discussions are private & confidential. (This includes this site.)
– If I am not being feed spiritually, I find something else to do.
Other things that came up since then are:
– The issues I face in life are really between me & God.
– Sometimes there is silence or the answer is wait or figure it out yourself & God will then tell you if it’s true (or not).
– Church is there to give me general guidance.
– When I am not receiving guidance or comfort from Church, I do something else.
Expect? Very little other than an effort to love and serve. I try not to have expectations specifically because everyone, including the leaders, are mortal and flawed. High expectations almost always lead to disappointment and even despair. I have been pleasantly surprised relatively regularly when I go into things without expectations.
Want?
That is a longer and more difficult question – and it probably deserves a different post and thread.
I don’t expect much anymore. I expect it to be safe physically for my kids. I expect to be treated with civility by others. I expect judgmentalism, high expectations, and a lack of interest in me personally when I am not following the textbook plan of the church. But I appreciate it when church members violate those negative expectations.
I don’t expect much else anymore.
I also believe the church is kind of set up to create those low expectations. You are supposed to pay tithing without expecting anything in return. That is at least, a cultural variable I have noticed. We have the eternal indebtedness clause in King Benjamin’s Discourse that reminds us no matter how much we give, we can never be in a state where God owes us anything. That seems to imply the church doesn’t owe us anything either.
I think we can be much happier when we don’t expect much from our brothers and sisters at church. Then we are not disappointed.
Regrettably, with low expectations tends to come low commitment. I think part of my problem with high expectations was the white-knuckling I used to do and the hard work I constantly put forward. That tended to raise my own expectations of the church. Cutting back on that has helped me lower my expectations accordingly.
I have been thinking about this a lot lately trying to figure out why church has been so hard for me lately. I have realized that I just want peace. And the truth is the “church” has never given me true peace. I have never felt good enough to be there or truly be a real part of it. I have tried so many different times to feel like I belonged and it always involved me trying to be something I’m not. It causes frustration, anxiety and depression but not peace.
In all honesty, if I could just look forward to going to feel peace and comfort instead of stress, I could deal with a lot of the other issues that I have with it. But if instead of a refuge, it is a hazard, it makes me wonder if it is the place for me.
kate5 wrote:I have been thinking about this a lot lately trying to figure out why church has been so hard for me lately.
I have realized that I just want peace. And the truth is the “church” has never given me true peace.I have never felt good enough to be there or truly be a real part of it. I have tried so many different times to feel like I belonged and it always involved me trying to be something I’m not. It causes frustration, anxiety and depression but not peace.In all honesty, if I could just look forward to going to feel peace and comfort instead of stress, I could deal with a lot of the other issues that I have with it. But if instead of a refuge, it is a hazard, it makes me wonder if it is the place for me.
I see what you mean, particularly based on the parts in bold. I agree with the frustration you feel at church — always chasing after less active people, and trying to influence people to do things they don’t want to do. That part can be frustrating. the long list of things we have to do can also be overwhelming. I also found the financial burden was often stressful as well.
I will admit, though, that at one time, being in the church gave me comfort when I was unemployed. I still had a place to serve and lead and do things, and for some reason, I felt God would look after my employment situation because I was serving him and paying tithing. That gave me a certain amount of peace.
Overall, it was a mixed bag, though, and I think when you had the frustration and feeling of being overwhelmed to the feelings of peace when I was unemployed, it comes out negative overall.
So, the challenge becomes — how do you stay at peace with your LDS experience, while still being part of it??
Minyan Man wrote:The reason is you are asked to review a GC talk with the doctrine presented. There will be very little discussion and no new ideas or open debate. (I need a nap already.)
😆 😆 😆 Return and report well-rested!
What the Church has given me, that I am the most grateful for, was freedom from many negative influences. So many of the standards and commandments taught by the Church have prevented me from making serious mistakes, and now that I am older I am so grateful I am free from most addiction, bad habits, and many other negative infuences. My greatest concern for being “semi-active” and in a crisis of faith is wondering how I can best help my children avoid those pitfalls, without relying on the absolute authority of Church leadership, or having to profess “the Church is true”. But that’s another topic. What I hoped the Church would give me, is that direct line to God, knowing what He would have me do, instructing me on the right course of action, and granting me peace and happiness in my best efforts to follow the Savior. One of the biggest claims of the Church is that we are lead by a prophet who directly communicates with God, and instructs us on what He would have us do. The second major claim is that each of us is intitled to personal revelation; and if we are in a position of authority (Bishopbric, presidency, etc), we are entitled to recieve revelation for those under us. Certian aspects of Church History have made me doubt the validity of the first claim. Personal experience has made me doubt the second. And dispite my best efforts to follow the Savior (if only He would tell me what was RIGHT or what to DO), I don’t feel at peace. I don’t feel like I’ve gained the wisdom or tools from the Church to be truly happy.
But in the end, the Church has given me the wisdom, tools, and instruction to be happier than I might’ve been otherwise. I am so greatful for that. I just expected it to carry me further.
I now expect church to be a human lead organization. Where this is frustrating is when other church members make what seem to me to be outlandish claims about how right the church is about everything and if we just follow the church everything will be perfect, happy, and true.
However, to make outlandish claims is a very human thing to do – so I suppose that I should expect that in a human lead organization.
I think you meant “Human Led Organization” — right Roy? If so, that is where I am at. Although I word it as “a temporal organization” only. One thing that seems to be unique about our religion is that the leaders and scriptures make no apologies for stating “all things are spiritual”, which means even the temporal is spiritual. Boy, that makes things complicated when we make large spiritual truth claims, espouse high values, and then see those values sacrificed on the altar of temporal concerns. That was hard for me to take a long time ago. I am at peace now with expecting the church to be a fully temporal organization. There is a spiritual veneer that you see on Sunday, but which fades quickly when there is a conflict between spiritual and temporal values. This is not to say that I think there is no spirituality in the church. I have felt the spirit many times, but I do believe that as a temporal organization, as leadership gets further and further away from the individual, decisions tend to be more organizationally centered than individually centered, even when spiritual matters or goals are at stake.
As an example, a few years ago Elder Holland spoke in a conference about the need for more senior couples on missions. Apparently, single couples were not signing up for missions like they used to, so he mentioned that Church would pay $400 per month toward housing. He punctuated his offer with “and I think that’s pretty NICE”. The comment really put me off. Here these couples had likely paid tithing for most or all of their lives, were going to be working for free, disrupting their lives, etcetera, and this modest allowance toward basic necessities was presented as a big favor.
In yet another example, I remember Gordon B Hinckley commenting once about how the church really values education “because it increases people’s capacity to serve in the church”. I thought the reasons might be more inclusive, such as refinding the mind and spirit, increasing the financial stability of individual families, improving the quality of life. But his reason was focused solely on how it benefits the church.
In yet another example, we had 200 families to home teach and only 14 companionships, of which about 6 actually functioned with any regularity. I started mailing letters monthly to families not visited, funding it all out of my own pocket. At $40 or $50 a month, this became a burden after a year. I wanted the Bishop to grant me an annualized amount that would pay for them. particularly since he admitted the letters made a difference in his interviews with less active people who came in for various interviews. Yet he refused my request, so I had to either wind up the letter campaign or continue funding it. At the end of the year, the Ward clerk told me they had a surplus and simply sent it back to the stake/salt lake. It seemed to me that reaching out to the people we could not see was only important if it was free.
I have other examples but these are the ones that come to mind.
So, I find that expecting little from the church, and matching my own effort toward its organizational goals accordingly is a peaceful place to be. Until such time I can find a way to give ’til it hurts again, without this increase in effort translating into higher expectations of what the church should be as an organization.
This is a good question and one that seems to come up somewhat regularly in one way or another. I look at it two ways: what I would like from the church as opposed to what I actually expect. Answering the latter first, I have come to not expect very much, and that’s a good thing for me because I am then pleased when I get more than I expect and not disappointed when I get what I expect (which is basically nothing). I would love it if in church each Sunday I relished the three hours and came forth edified and spiritually recharged for the coming week. That happens sometimes (never the whole three hours). I’d love it if I always felt welcome, valued and validated. I sometimes feel that way. I’d appreciate if I knew that my needs, whatever they are, would be met by the church in my hour of need.
Wow Silent Dawning! You have definitely went above and beyond. No wonder you feel unappreciated and frustrated at times. kate5 wrote:Wow Silent Dawning! You have definitely went above and beyond. No wonder you feel unappreciated and frustrated at times.
I realized that was my problem. I am finding life is much easier with lowered expectations of myself and others at church. And to take many of the things we hear at church with a bit of grain of salt.
Expect the leaders to behave like managers in any volunteer organization, but with lesser commitment on key issues that paid staff might take seriously. Don’t expect there to be good social services when you need them, and don’t expect leaders to return your hard work with compassion and mercy when you are struggling and need a break. I guess I’ve lowered my expectations to requiring civility and personal safety (and both of these have been issues at certain times in my decades in the church too — even these minimal expectations). I even wonder if civility is too much to expect in an organization of people from all walks of life…
A good corollary to this is that I no longer feel I need anything from the church. I don’t need it for community. I don’t need it for personal growth. I definitely never plan to go to it for financial help. I used to feel it had so much claim on me, but I don’t anymore. I feel independent of it, relating to it on my own terms. It is liberating really. And it is still there in case I ever change my mind, as I am firm about not cutting of my options locally.
I agree with the comment that there is a difference between expectations and wants. The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.
A friend is what the heart needs all the time.
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