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Back in my more active and orthodox days I used to use the phrase “I know the church is true” like many others did. Admittedly, it was not an every testimony kind of thing, but I did sometimes say it. And I meant it. From the perspective that Joseph Smith had a vision telling him, in part, that all other churches were wrong and that he organized a church under God’s direction (or so I believed at the time), the church was, therefore, true. But after coming to the point where I didn’t necessarily believe Joseph Smith organized a church under God’s direction and spending a great deal of time here, I have come to understand that just because that’s what I meant when I said I knew the church was true wasn’t necessarily what other people mean when they say it. For what it’s worth, at this point I would not say “I know the church is true” simply because I don’t, nor do I believe it is in that same sense. So, what do you mean or what do you perceive others mean when they say they know the church is true?
As is my tendency, I will try to find and link to previous posts about this topic. Everyone else, comment away.
I remember semi-answering that before so I searched my posts and dug up: nibbler wrote:I know where you’re coming from, that phrase sticks out to me as well. It means something to the people saying it and the majority of the people hearing it so I give it a pass. Still I think people would get more out of bearing their testimony if they could better articulate what it is.
At best it’s a condensed way of saying “I know that this church is the the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth with which the Lord is well pleased.” At worst it’s just something that’s repeated out of routine. People repeat it because that’s what people hear.
To that I would amend:
The LDS church is the only church with the priesthood, the authority to perform ordinances like baptism
- The LDS church is the only one that Christ is directly involved with leading and directing
- And of course, all other churches are false, fall short
There is some related discussion near the middle of the page of this thread, starting with Orson’s comment: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4187&start=20 Speaking for myself, when I used to say it, I believed that I did know… and what I knew was that the Church, its organization and its teachings were directed by God and in the form He wanted, and that it was the only Church in that position. I ‘knew’ based on personal experience, spiritual manifestations, and by the fruits of the Church in the world at large, as well as in my own life. I know people say it who couldn’t possibly ‘know’, but I’m not concerned with that. I wish I could again “know the Church is true.” Knowing that would solve a lot of problems.
From Joseph Campbell’s The Power of Myth…
Quote:
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck to its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.
To me, hearing “I know the church is true” has become to me synonymous to hearing “I know the principles underlying the gospel are true.”I think you’re getting all ontological on us. Just so you all know, I’m “listening” to this one for the time being because I asked what you think it means. I already know what I think it means, but that can change. Sorry, correction. You be getting all epistemological on us, Dark Jedi…
For me it means it has the priesthood, Christ is the head of it, and necessary ordinances for exaltation. What it doesn’t mean for me is the church leaders, even the presidents of the church, not being perfect. One of those imperfections is misinterpreting doctrine and teaching the wrong doctrine. It also doesn’t mean Christ always needs everyone in his church. For me, it does also mean when Christ comes for his second coming he will probably make some corrections in his church. Generally, for most people, I believe it means, Quote:“
My experiences tell me it’s God’s work– that the vision at its heart is important and right.” In other words,
Quote:“It works for me (in some way) and I believe what it is all about (whatever that means to me).”
It can mean a lot of different things. 1. For some it means “I really believe this”
2. For others it means “this is the influence of the church culture encouraging me to say something everyone else says”.
3. For some, i believe they have truly had spiritual experiences that convinced them its true. Extraordinary experiences.
But like any shop-worn phrase, it loses its meaning over time. It means nothing to me when I hear it now.
What matters to me is what ONE brother did the other day to me in our new Ward. Everyone ignores us there now, but he always comes over and talks to me about something of interest. THOSE words matter because they show unscripted charity, and that matters more than any shop-worn statement of belief that can’t be substantiated.
I have a huge problem with members/missionaries that throw around the word “true”. It’s ok to believe, have faith, feel with all your heart, etc. but claiming some cultural/traditional/mormon-only definition of such a commonly accepted word is not “ok” at all. I call it “Utah-speak”….and it accounts for no small amount of eye-rolling from the general public.
“True” implies, at least I think it is supposed to imply, much more provable data that “I know the Church is true” does. Although members/missionaries don’t seem to mind if the general public, or each other, take their meaning of “true” to mean much more than it does.
I can recall little children, who know Santa Claus is “true”, standing up and saying that little phrase in F&T meetings.
THAT, is cult mentality at it’s worst. IMHO.
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