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DarkJedi wrote:
I too have quite a bit to say about this subject but don’t feel like typing it all. Suffice it to say that most of what I’m reading here doesn’t sound like they’re councils to me. Councils, discussions and lessons are not one in the same even though they might share some similarities with each other.
I like this…can you indulge me with your different definitions of these and what you see is happening 3rd hour?
nibbler wrote:
If that’s what the other 39 people need out of councils then I think it would be wrong of me to try to get the council to change subjects.
That may be charitable, and may be what being part of the group is…allowing it to serve the majority.
Just probably means you get nothing from it.
I guess you either decide to serve with others, or be honest that it isn’t something you can do right now, which I think is fine. Buffet. Choose what parts you want.
Heber13 wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
I have so much to say about this, but the church is so against using the knowledge of learned men, or knowledge from the world, that they won’t listen to most of it anyway. So my enthusiasm to contribute such knowledge is waning….
:problem: hmmm…idk… missionaries are using Facebook and handhelds and tablets.Seems like they are open to trying practical things, no?
Those are just tools, tools that for missionaries are probably locked down or monitored.
Not to put words in SD’s mouth but I think an example of what he’s talking about would be the counsel we receive to not share things outside of the correlated materials during our lessons. In that context, the tablet or phone is just a tool to grant access to the general conference talk.
Local leadership roulette. Some wards are better than others at this. There are some wards where a class member will tattle to the BP if someone brings in outside material and the BP will get onto the instructor to stick to just the manual/conference talk. I’m hoping instances to that extreme are rare. I’d say the average case is that people giving the lesson probably would rather be doing anything else other than teaching the lesson so the lesson becomes an hour of their lives that they have to white knuckle and get through. Being untrained, they stick to the manuals and conference talks because that is the path of least resistance to get through the teaching obligation and that is the model they have witnessed over and over again.
Well…I will admit my enthusiasm is waning like SD, I can understand that feeling. But I don’t think he is talking about lessons and curriculum, but leadership styles, theories, and effective organization management to get more involvement and commitment from volunteer members.
And I’m not sure why any worldly management style would be shunned at church, if it was done effectively within the mission of the church. I would think good leaders get recognized and promoted…wherever their knowledge cones from. It just has to be in harmony of the gospel.
There is a huge, important difference between “counsel” and “council”. The two get confused and conflated too often.
Old Timer wrote:
There is a huge, important difference between “counsel” and “council”.The two get confused and conflated too often.
Very good point, Curt.
Heber13 wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
I have so much to say about this, but the church is so against using the knowledge of learned men, or knowledge from the world, that they won’t listen to most of it anyway. So my enthusiasm to contribute such knowledge is waning….
:problem: hmmm…idk… missionaries are using Facebook and handhelds and tablets.Seems like they are open to trying practical things, no?
I’m not saying they are backwards when it comes to technology (although you might argue they are a good 10 years behind much of the time). I am saying that from experience, when I suggest they apply effective management theory to priesthood leadership, or say something contrary to cultural thinking based on research, they will often tell me not to let the philosophies of men guide me — follow the prophets.
Who, by the way, have lately been coming out with stuff to address concerns I’ve had for decades.
Back in JS’s day, I think the common men had a disdain for academics. I suspect the academics were also arrogant given the lack of access to education, and the status they enjoyed. I think some of this disdain made it into the BoM “translation”.
Quote:Silent Dawning wrote Back in JS’s day, I think the common men had a disdain for academics. I suspect the academics were also arrogant given the lack of access to education, and the status they enjoyed. I think some of this disdain made it into the BoM “translation”.
I see Joseph Smith as wanting academics. The school of the Prophets wasn’t about religious stuff. It was about study and debate. From the history that I understand, he brought in or was looking for people to teach languages, sciences, etc. That’s how the BoA sarcophagus arrived in the area. Now, I can’t say that the teachers or the places they got their learning from were high end, but I don’t think he disdained academics.
I think as a church we made a huge turn during Joseph Fielding Smith’s era. (I may mean Joseph F. I mix them up all the time). He was the one who questioned science. Made claims that no one would walk on the moon, etc. McConkie and Packard (plus many others) built on that pulpit. Now we sort of dismiss academics.
I also remember that when Relief Society was not correlated, and a bit during the early correlation, that the lessons were much broader than “just church”. Because the women wrote their own manuals and had less restriction, wards and stakes covered more extensive areas like learning about other countries, connecting with and serving in non religious organizations, guests speakers with other skills outside your ward came in. It was one of the many deep losses of correlation.
When I was a youth, our ward always held a youth leadership training at one of the industry giants in our area. The guru’s of the Valley (Silicon Valley) taught us management and organizational strategies. (I cringe during so many planning meetings in our church, because everyone else didn’t go to the classes).
I half agree. I think as a culture have stepped too far from “men’s learning”. It took way too many decades for a top church leader to publicly acknowledge depression as a serious human event vs. the age old guilt of sin. I don’t think Joseph intended for that to happen. I think he and Brigham had a more robust vision. Think of all the women Brigham sent back east to medical school.
This is one of the drawbacks of neglecting our real history. Not just the history according to the Doctrine & Covenants.
mom3 wrote:
Quote:Silent Dawning wrote Back in JS’s day, I think the common men had a disdain for academics. I suspect the academics were also arrogant given the lack of access to education, and the status they enjoyed. I think some of this disdain made it into the BoM “translation”.
I see Joseph Smith as wanting academics.
In general, I think people in general love and respect those academics who agree with them, and disdain those who do not. It takes a rare sort of individual to appreciate those who disagree with them, and even rarer to admit, when presented with strong evidence, that they were wrong. Most Church leaders historically have not been
thatkind of special. Going back to Brigham Young; He taught people lived on the sun, and denounced organic evolution. Education and academics were a tool, with a very specific purpose. If it supports their authority and their teachings, it’s of God. If it goes against their authority and teachings, it’s of the devil.
Quote:
Back in JS’s day, I think the common men had a disdain for academics. I suspect the academics were also arrogant given the lack of access to education, and the status they enjoyed. I think some of this disdain made it into the BoM “translation”.
They still do and in America it’s very evident. Despite all the bleating about equality from universities, they are some of the main purveyors of class snobbery and élitism. Some universities court rich, but not very bright, students in order to get legacies from them.
Then you have some highly privileged academic from a wealthy background telling working class white males that they are their oppressors.
Education is an issue of wealth. It is also in many cases incestuous and designed to shut out laypeople.
No wonder then that ordinary people hate them.
I’m curious what topics you guys thing would be good topics for council meetings. Here are the ones we’ve done: 1 – gathering input on topics people wanted for upcoming lessons. This one was a disaster.
2 – about the wide-scale changes (including youth interviews with parent in or adjacent, Elders Quorum, and ministering). This went well.
3 – a sister shared a personal story about not wanting to be judged about her daughter’s “modesty” choices. Good discussion. Lots of helpful input.
I’m doing one soon, and I was thinking of talking about what we do when life turns out differently than we had expected, dealing with changes in our lives.
What topics would you like in your council meetings?
hawkgrrrl wrote:
I’m curious what topics you guys thing would be good topics for council meetings. Here are the ones we’ve done:I’m doing one soon, and I was thinking of talking about what we do when life turns out differently than we had expected, dealing with changes in our lives.
What topics would you like in your council meetings?
I am listening to “Option B: Facing Adversity, Building Resilience, and Finding Joy ” as an audio book. I find a lot to think about, but mostly these 3 principles stand out to me so far early in the book:
– taking everything that ever happens to you like a punch in the gut.
– focusing on thinking that because 1 thing goes wrong, everything else does too. Like, I can’t do math, so I am lousy at basketball, house-cleaning, and just an all-around bad person. My weaknesses define my entire immediate life.
– focusing on thinking that 1 bad choice will influence everything for the rest of your life. That you are “stuck” in wherever you ended up. I see these principles in action in my life in a bad way sometimes. I started getting better about it when I had some CBT therapy for anxiety. Identifying these principles is right in line with that. I remind myself, “Don’t take it Personally” now, or that “It’s just a developmental/temporary phase”, or “Am I letting this seep into the rest of my life and coloring the rest of my life for ill?”
I think that these principles could be tweaked for a framework for a lesson – with quotes from the general authorities filling it in. In fact, most of President Uchtdorf’s talk, “It Works Wonderfully” would be a framework talk (if needed).
AmyJ wrote:
hawkgrrrl wrote:
I’m curious what topics you guys thing would be good topics for council meetings. Here are the ones we’ve done:I’m doing one soon, and I was thinking of talking about what we do when life turns out differently than we had expected, dealing with changes in our lives.
What topics would you like in your council meetings?
I am listening to “Option B: Facing Adversity, Building Resilience, and Finding Joy ” as an audio book. I find a lot to think about, but mostly these 3 principles stand out to me so far early in the book:
– taking everything that ever happens to you like a punch in the gut.
– focusing on thinking that because 1 thing goes wrong, everything else does too. Like, I can’t do math, so I am lousy at basketball, house-cleaning, and just an all-around bad person. My weaknesses define my entire immediate life.
– focusing on thinking that 1 bad choice will influence everything for the rest of your life. That you are “stuck” in wherever you ended up. I see these principles in action in my life in a bad way sometimes. I started getting better about it when I had some CBT therapy for anxiety. Identifying these principles is right in line with that. I remind myself, “Don’t take it Personally” now, or that “It’s just a developmental/temporary phase”, or “Am I letting this seep into the rest of my life and coloring the rest of my life for ill?”
I think that these principles could be tweaked for a framework for a lesson – with quotes from the general authorities filling it in. In fact, most of President Uchtdorf’s talk, “It Works Wonderfully” would be a framework talk (if needed).
No offense intended Amy, but IMO none of that would be the topic of a council but it may be the topic of a lesson or discussion.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
I’m curious what topics you guys thing would be good topics for council meetings. Here are the ones we’ve done:1 – gathering input on topics people wanted for upcoming lessons. This one was a disaster.
2 – about the wide-scale changes (including youth interviews with parent in or adjacent, Elders Quorum, and ministering). This went well.
3 – a sister shared a personal story about not wanting to be judged about her daughter’s “modesty” choices. Good discussion. Lots of helpful input.
I’m doing one soon, and I was thinking of talking about what we do when life turns out differently than we had expected, dealing with changes in our lives.
What topics would you like in your council meetings?
1. Definitely. We have did have a sort of related one in my ward, but it was lumped in with something else. I’m sorry yours didn’t work out well because I think for a RSP or EQP what they group wants to learn about could be very good counsel.
2. Maybe. Probably more of a discussion, but to fit the “curriculum” it would have to be linked with one or more of the GC talks, which is very possible.
3. Sounds like a great discussion, and that’s what it was. I don’t believe that was a council but was again a discussion.
I get what Curt was saying earlier and agree. But I think a council has to have input/output (counsel) probably for the leadership (but not necessarily limited to them). From a council I think there’s an output or accomplishment, usually with tasks, assignments or plans. From the curriculum page:
Quote:First Sundays will be council meetings, in which members counsel together about local responsibilities, opportunities, and challenges in doing the Lord’s work.
mom3 wrote:I see Joseph Smith as wanting academics. The school of the Prophets wasn’t about religious stuff. It was about study and debate. From the history that I understand, he brought in or was looking for people to teach languages, sciences, etc. That’s how the BoA sarcophagus arrived in the area. Now, I can’t say that the teachers or the places they got their learning from were high end, but I don’t think he disdained academics.
Excellent point.In some ways, our councils could support this idea of study and debate.
Hawkgrrrl wrote:I’m doing one soon, and I was thinking of talking about what we do when life turns out differently than we had expected, dealing with changes in our lives.
What topics would you like in your council meetings?
Perhaps you find out the appetite for it in your ward…but…openly discuss the approach of early church to school of the prophets and seeking and learning and pushing for revelation in meetings.
Therefore…difficult topics like “What does it mean to preside and also have equity in the home?”
Or just some study topics to get to know the bible more:
“Deep study of Ruth and other biblical women figures we don’t spend enough time on”
“Jesus parables and how they can be interpreted today” (we don’t spend enough time talking about Jesus in our church)
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