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So first I’d ask, has a prophet ever told us to do something that would hurt people unnecessarily?
Yes. Absolutely. More than once. I sustain and support them as prophets, but the answer is a resounding, “Yes”. Perhaps less than some Old Testament prophets, but definitely, nonetheless.
For example, restricting black people from the blessings of the temple, with no revelatory foundation, is the one that comes to mind immediately. Also, “Miracle of Forgiveness” was incredibly damaging to lots of members – and I say that as someone who absolutely loved President Kimball. The Church’s previous support of methods of curing homosexuality (not supported now) is another great example that caused incredible harm to many people, as was the counsel for homosexuals to avoid interacting with other homosexuals, and I believe the mixing of church and state surrounding gay marriage is another one.
I don’t want this thread to turn into an argument about any of those issues, so let’s just leave it here as examples of things that I believe have hurt people unnecessarily.
Quote:I believe there is a mighty sifting coming soon and we’ll have a greater need of a leader.
I actually agree with this one – but I see it happening in the letting go of extreme conservative positions and with a leader like President Uchtdorf. I see it in the need to distance ourselves from the extreme conservatism that has developed in Utah and other areas over the last 50 years, and I see President Hinkcley and others as starting that change.
I find it fascinating to see how many hardcore conservative members reacted badly to the Church’s position on immigration, for example – and how much push back there has been in those same circles to the new explanation of the Priesthood ban and some of Pres. Uchtdorf’s messages about accepting all people in the Church regardless of their politics and theological perspectives.
Hi Zep Quote:So first I’d ask, has a prophet ever told us to do something that would hurt people unnecessarily? If I were put in that position it would certainly be a trial of faith, but I don’t feel the Lord would ever ask that.
Wow. Have you ever heard of the ban that was put into place that didn’t allow black men or women to enter the temple? It was rescinded in 1978. That probably hurt many black people unnecessarily. Thousands of white LDS members were excommunicated and marginalized and had their family relationships destroyed because of this directive from “prophets” that excluded black members from the Mormon temples and the celestial kingdom. Oh that is right…they could go to the celestial kingdom, but only as servants.
There are SOOOOO many examples…
.(Edited by cwald after reading Zep’s intro thread. No need to be uncivil.🙂 )
Quote:Because of disobedience and the lack of faith of members the Lord changed many things in this church, but has promised to restore them at some point.
I believe that in the near future the LDS church will take that radical approach again. I believe there will be many things we will be asked to do againthat might not sit well with our cultural beliefs, personal biases, limited knowledge, and a temporal perspective. Interesting? You mean, like, say, polygamy? Would you live polygamy if the President Monson told the members it was a commandment to do so?
Quote:Many people will have learned to trust in the flesh of man
Like, say, local LDS church leaders and “prophets?”
Quote:we will experience the second great apostasy.
Indeed. Oh, yes indeed
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:I believe there is a mighty sifting coming soon and we’ll have a greater need of a leader.
I actually agree with this one – but I see it happening in the letting go of extreme conservative positions and with a leader like President Uchtdorf. I see it in the need to distance ourselves from the extreme conservatism that has developed in Utah and other areas over the last 50 years, and I see President Hinkcley and others as starting that change.
I find it fascinating to see how many hardcore conservative members reacted badly to the Church’s position on immigration, for example – and how much push back there has been in those same circles to the new explanation of the Priesthood ban and some of Pres. Uchtdorf’s messages about accepting all people in the Church regardless of their politics and theological perspectives.
Yep. Well said.
I agree with the blacks and the priesthood. That is the one unexplainable question that is continually brought up. I don’t have the answer for that one. We know Joseph Smith allowed two black brethren to hold the priesthood and we know the church’s statement concerning it. What we don’t know is the eternal affect it had on those whom it affected. We also know that it wasn’t until the second time that a prophet asked that the “ban” was removed. This raises a few questions in my mind as to the reason why? However, did this lead anyone astray? I believe fully that every black member that was affected will have the full opportunity to receive all the blessings of the temple. We are making a judgment call with a temporal perspective and limited knowledge. The issue with the miracle of forgiveness was not Kimball acting as the prophet. He was an apostle at the time and the book was not even published by the church. I think when you talk about members being less conservative this is what you’re referring to and if so I agree completely. Members read book by leaders of our church and assume and accept it as doctrine. This is not my position, my position is when the prophet is acting as the prophet that is when he is being the mouthpiece of God.
I hope you understand I’m not taking the position of I’m right and you’re wrong. I just feel we learn when our convictions are challenged and broken down to the root. If they are build on solid principles that’s what we would hope for. I will never take the position of having the only right answer because I know that is ignorant. I strive to base my beliefs on principles as I understand them, and I certainly don’t know or understand them all.
To answer the question would I follow polygamy today if told to do so by our prophet. The answer is, I would be down on my knees praying for knowledge of what to do, but I would be willing to accept that if that is what God’s plans are for me than for whatever reason I’ll do it. Luckily the D&C gave me an out with that one since my wife would never be in agreeance☺
I believe that God has an order to everything. After the fall, God no longer dealt directly with Adam. His commandments went through Jesus first then to Peter, James, and John then to Adam. Adam obeyed ignorantly and was blessed for it with further instructions and knowledge, but not till after his trial of faith and obedience. When he was asked why he was offering sacrifices he replied, “I know not save the lord has commanded me.” If the prophet asked me to do something I would take that same approach. Yes it is totally against my nature, yes it would be difficult and hurling, but that’s what God requires of us and I have learned when I’m obedient blessings follow.
By the way, how do you do the quote thing when you are responding directly to one thing I said? I’m kind of new to this forum stuff. zeppelinate wrote:I agree with the blacks and the priesthood.
To answer the question would I follow polygamy today if told to do so by our prophet. The answer is, I would be down on my knees praying for knowledge of what to do,
but I would be willing to accept that if that is what God’s plans are for me than for whatever reason I’ll do it.Luckily the D&C gave me an out with that one since my wife would never be in agreeance☺ I believe that God has an order to everything.
If the prophet asked me to do something I would take that same approach. Yes it is totally against my nature, yes it would be difficult and hurling, but that’s what God requires of us and
I have learned when I’m obedient blessings follow. So you do agree than that the prophets do sometimes ask people to do things that are harmful and damaging to some members?
Hmmmm? So you believe Emma agreed to all of Joseoph Smith’s wives? Interesting.
I reject the Mormon concept that most members believe is the the correct model of worship …….. God>CHURCH>man
I believe that is the issue why Joseph Smith started the Mormon church to begin with…because it is what most religions teach and expect from it’s members, and he disagreed with that concept and taught man to go directly to god…and there was no need to have church or an intermediary between god and mankind.
I believe it is much healthier for me to believe in the following model……. God>man>church.
I know Emma didn’t approve of any, but I think maybe three in a short lived period only after being threatened with Gods wrath. I like the ideal of God-Man-Church. Is there any doctrine that supports it? We know we will be asked to form Zion before the second coming. I don’t see how the God-man-church approach would apply, but I’m open to the idea.
zeppelinate wrote:
I like the ideal of God-Man-Church. Is there any doctrine that supports it? …James 2:5
Quote:What we don’t know is the eternal effect it had on those whom it affected.
Correct, but we do know the effect it had on many in the here and now – and it was brutal. That is enough for me. I admire the absolute most those who stuck it out regardless, but I understand why so many couldn’t. Honestly, I’m not sure if I could have joined or stayed if I had experienced what so many black people and members did.
Also, fwiw, I favor more of a triangle relationship, where God can speak to “man” and “church”. In the end, however, I believe I cannot violate my conscience in ways that cause real harm to others and expect God to excuse me simply because someone else told me to do so. After all, the first and great commandments are exclusively about love – and everything else is said to hand on them. Therefore, if I believe something violates those commandments, I feel no obligation to accept it as God’s will.
Thus, to return to the question of this post’s title, I believe true and full sustaining must include all elements of the multiple definitions I shared in an earlier comment – one of which includes strengthening and sharing honest concerns and disagreement when they exist. Tone and choice of words are important, but differing opinions are critical to the best decisions.
Quote:I like the ideal of God-Man-Church. Is there any doctrine that supports it?
Also, there is every statement by church leaders that the fundamental unit of society is the family, NOT the LDS Church – and those statements are legion.
True, but what is our understanding of love? God taught us
1-“What manner of men ought ye be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am.”
2-But I say unto you, Love your enemies
3-For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?
4- Be ye therefore perfect, even as your cFather which is in heaven is perfect.
What do we know about God’s perfect love? That can be very ambiguous. There are many examples in scripture that I wouldn’t consider showing loving as I currently understand it. There are also scriptures that would suggest that though God is no respecter of man he certainly favors certain spirits. Does this show a lack of love?
True, family is the fundamental unit of society but even it has a chain of command so to speak as we learn in the temple and the proclamation to the family. zeppelinate wrote:
. . . Joseph Smith was asked to take multiple wife’s (which clearly hurt Emma), many of the prophets were told to leave their families and follow Christ. It would certainly be a trial of my faith if I were put into any of those positions. However, here’s my fear with taking such a strong position like that. Currently we would look at the church as being pretty conservative, however they have not always been this way. Looking back at our history I would label the church as quite radical. Because of disobedience and the lack of faith of members the Lord changed many things in this church, but has promised to restore them at some point. I believe that in the near future the LDS church will take that radical approach again.I believe there will be many things we will be asked to do again that might not sit well with our cultural beliefs, personal biases, limited knowledge, and a temporal perspective. In my opinion, this is when we will experience the second great apostasy.Many people will have learned to trust in the flesh of man and in their own wisdom and when faced with hard decisions have not learned to trust in the lord. It’s easy to follow a conservative movement, but it takes a deep level of personal conviction to follow a radical one. I’m not saying this is where you’re at, but I know many in my circle of influence who are. I believe there is a mighty sifting coming soon and we’ll have a greater need of a leader.
I definitely lack your perspective. I have no vision of General Authorities teaching polygamy to their young granddaughters, or of women driving around their stakes preaching the principle to their sisters. I’d be gone in a blink.
What I hope will be seen as “radical” going forward is the organization and energy of our homes and stakes – our money-where-our-mouth-is commitment to love and serve each other and our fellow man. That’s what my leaders focus on, so I sustain them. Sometimes visiting teaching is “radical” when you’re doing it right. About fifty years ago my mother came home from the hospital after having her second baby. (My dad was a member, but she hadn’t been baptized yet.) She found that someone from the ward had come in, cleaned the house and left dinner. She was overwhelmed; no one had ever done anything like that for her before. That’s the kind of radicalism I’m into.
Well said Ann! zeppelinate wrote:True, but what is our understanding of love?
God taught us
1-“What manner of men ought ye be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am.”
2-But I say unto you, Love your enemies
3-For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?
4- Be ye therefore perfect, even as your cFather which is in heaven is perfect.
What do we know about God’s perfect love? That can be very ambiguous. There are many examples in scripture that I wouldn’t consider showing loving as I currently understand it. There are also scriptures that would suggest that though God is no respecter of man he certainly favors certain spirits.
Does this show a lack of love? Yes.
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