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One thing that I often see discussed is the desire for our sacrament meetings to be more centered on worship. I was wondering what worship meant to people here. What does worship mean to you? Who or what would you like to see worshiped more during sacrament meetings? What format would your worship take?
My desire has little to do with format, but I would like to have the sacrament administered at the end, right before the closing song and prayer. It can be powerful to have talks that center on God and the Gospel first and then have the ceremonial celebration of the Atonement right afterward. In the context of meetings, I define worship as anything that focuses on God and becoming like them. It is not general topic instruction (Sunday School) or program discussion (RS/PH). It isn’t about specific commandments, requirements, policies, or expectations – except as they deal with becoming godly. It isn’t tangentially related in some way to the divine; it is related directly. It is testimony, experience, faithful, sincere, heartfelt, etc. It can be musical or verbal – or visual.
I don’t care much about exact details. I care almost exclusively about the “spirit” of a worshipful meeting.
The term doesn’t really mean anything to me. I find that worship leads to disappointment. Things we worship carry great responsibilities to meet expectations. This is because objects of worship must have some great characteristics that make us think a lot of them. In my experience, they almost always disappoint.
I also think it’s arrogant to expect someone to worship you. Now, to follow you, that’s another story, but worship? That way lies narcissism, disapointment, etcetera.
If you take what I understand to be an orthoprax approach, any kind of ceremony should be there to help you do good. Not to worship anything…
I think this is a very hard question, partly because it can be very different for different people. I don’t know if I can define it, but I know it when I see (or feel) it. I used to work with a devout Muslim guy who did his midday prayers at work. The place didn’t give him an actual space as some do today, but said he could use any quiet out of the way space he chose. He used the landing of a little used stairway. I did sometimes use that stairway and accidentally encountered him praying there one day. I’m not sure if he knew I was there ( I was a flight down, but stairways tend to be a little echoey) and I turned and went back down. Nevertheless, he didn’t stop what he was doing and it was very clear to me that he was very devoted and intent upon what he was doing. There was a reverence there (real reverence, not the Pharisaical part we teach Primary kids). To me I was witnessing worship.
I have mentioned worship on the forums before and I admit that people probably wondered what exactly I meant. I have been known to say that I don’t really believe in prayer like most members seem to, that I don’t believe prayers are actually answered or even heard, that I don’t ask for anything, and that I see prayer as a form of worship. What I think I mean there is that prayer, for me, is a time of reverence toward God. Even though I do not believe prayers are answered I admit to often feel at peace during my somewhat rare prayers. In that sense, prayer id for me worship – showing a devotion or reverence to God, even though I don’t believe in what I’m doing.
Likewise, I see the sacrament as worship. I try to “prepare” myself by focusing my thoughts on the Savior and not being distracted by the other conversation around me in the chapel (admittedly hard when someone comes over to talk). During the hymn I try to focus on the message of the hymn and likewise focus on the message of the prayers. I like to read scripture during the passing, and the scripture I read is almost always from the four gospels and generally the closing chapters of those books starting with the Last Supper. Again, for me, that is showing reverence and gratitude toward God – in other words worship.
I think where it becomes more complicated in the rest of the three hours. I honestly have a very hard time having that same sort of reverence when the talk is about pioneers or patriotism (two recent SM topics). Give me a good talk about grace or any God or Christ centered thing and I’m pretty much there. As I have stated here before, I often create my own worship by reading old favorite talks and articles when the subject of worship from the pulpit isn’t doing it for me. I sometimes research a core gospel related topic of my own. I really question what we are worshiping during a talk about prepping (AKA self reliance or emergency preparedness). Admittedly the other two hours are even harder sometimes.
Very frankly, other churches generally seem to do a much better job, particularly during their “worship” services I have been to. I should also note that I have not attended Sunday School or other meetings in other churches.
We can look through the scriptures and see how worship is used, and it is used in various ways…so I think there is quite a variety of ways in how we worship. Mostly to me, it is honoring, respecting and showing God I love Him.
In doing those things, I feel good. As I try to align my will to “God’s will” (as I define that).
I have also enjoyed visiting catholic mass, and other religious worship services, and have been impressed how many unique ways congregations get together to worship in their own ways, in ways that are meaningful to them.
That is what it is about…how to make it meaningful in a worship service meeting with others, and then also how to find ways to make it personal worship on my own privately on a daily basis. There are few limitations to worship.
If I were in a position that Daniel found himself in, where the lion’s den was the penalty for outward worship…I’d simply choose to inwardly worship and avoid the lions. Because it would be just as meaningful to me and my relationship to god…and a lot less of the downside.
Since I don’t have that issue…I find joining the fellowship of the saints to worship is a strengthening thing for me.
I think my “worship” side has grown since my faith transition. I was devout in practice. And I feel I had many supporting and enlightening spiritual experiences during that time. Over time some of my practices ceased to be worshipful and began check boxes. Worship for me is heart connected. I love Sacrament Meetings where Christ, Love, Charity, and the like are the focus. When our hymns massage my heart toward the Divine. I enjoy visiting other religions worship meetings. I don’t do it often but when I do – I soar. New words, new ideas, new hymns.
In my life now I fill my world with worship. I listen to Catholic radio. Evangelical devotions. I was never opposed to reading spiritual leaders outside our church. I think my mom’s being a convert made that a comfortable place. We often stopped by the Christian bookstore when I was a kid. We didn’t have Deseret Book or the internet. Today though my tablet is flooded with Richard Rohr, Desmond Tutu, Mother Teresa, Deepak Chopra, Leo Buscialia, and others.
I also worship with my talents. I believe in the parable of the talents of growing them and taking them back to God.
I talk all day to the Divine, now. Less lists, more conversations. It works for my heart.
mom3 wrote:
I was devout in practice.
Well said. i do think that this is definitely one form of worship.
mom3 wrote:
I talk all day to the Divine, now. Less lists, more conversations. It works for my heart.
and this is a great example of another form of it.
The cool part about what you said is that it is something meaningful to you and the Divine. That is what it should be.
I’m not sure we could prove one form is “better than” another … maybe just better for you and your life now.
You know that reason we sometimes hear at church for reading the scriptures again (and again, and again…)? That our life circumstances change and we can get a little something different out of the scriptures each time we read them. I took several years off from reading the old standards because I just wasn’t getting much out of them but I recently took a dive back in to see what would leap out at me from the scriptures given recent [life] that’s shaped my reality for an extended period of time. Now that I feel more open to the idea of questioning god, or more accurately stated, more open to question people’s personification of their concept of god, this theme of worship kept rising to the top in my readings. Admittedly I was reading more OT themed scripture, which includes some stuff in the BoM and PoGP. As a side note, I feel that one of Joseph’s missteps was to try to restore
everything, even some of the stuff that Jesus may have intended to put an end to. The takeaway here is that I think the concepts of worship I was reading about were in the same vein as the OT god. A god that is kinda like this:
SilentDawning wrote:I also think it’s arrogant to expect someone to worship you. Now, to follow you, that’s another story, but worship? That way lies narcissism, disapointment, etcetera.
That was the vibe that I was getting out of the god of the characters in the stories. Their god often came across as insecure, jealous, capricious, vengeful, etc., even in a post-Good News world. In part that’s where this question of worship comes from, the definition of expressing adoration towards deity. The scriptures I was reading also had another element. It’s one thing to give adoration freely but I got the impression that adoration was an obligation that was demanded from the people in the stories.
It got me thinking… why
worship? I appreciate the value in venerating an ideal. God is perfect, worshiping the symbol of god could be a way of revering perfection, in this case I’ll interpret “perfection” as “charitable behavior.”
I’ll give the disclaimer. I think what leaps out of the scriptures at me says more about me than what it says about the scriptures. In some of the challenges I’ve had over the years I can see how I’d naturally gravitate to seeing an insecure vengeful god in some of our scriptures. These thoughts had me question… why worship? Why feed that monster and keep it going?
But I concede that there are many forms of worship. Worship doesn’t always mean… grovel? or I don’t know. I’ve probably said enough crazy for the day, I’ll quit.
Using the idea of venerating or hero worshipping – on church level – I would love it if we did venerate Deity more. Hero Worship them a bit. I often feel like they get left off the page. Even the Sacrament Ordinance- a holy practice – is just a thing we get over before we get on with the meat of Sacrament Meeting. We seem to have no problem creating “Walked on Water” mortals, but if scripture is true and Divine individuals planned this earth, have eternal purposes for this life and our life to come (I am talking in the simple Christian View of Heaven) – shouldn’t we try to nudge the envelope on Deity Worship. Even for just an hour?
I concur with Rays idea of making the Sacrament the final event of the meeting. With the hymns and addresses setting it up for it’s holy opportunity. I also wish we spent time discussing or intimating about the Divine in all God’s children. Sense it, feel it, seek it, expand it.
I love LDS robustness. We are passionate, committed, hard working, etc. I don’t want to change those. I just want to infuse them with the Light of Christ/Goodness/Karma whichever description works for your soul. In my mind we owe Divinity that.
nibbler wrote:I think what leaps out of the scriptures at me says more about me than what it says about the scriptures. In some of the challenges I’ve had over the years I can see how I’d naturally gravitate to seeing an insecure vengeful god in some of our scriptures.
I find these reflections very insightful and thought provoking in my life as well.
It makes me think…that is why I must practice my worshipping skills, so I might show my love for God, even if I have insecurities. I can trust God can help me develop ways to overcome the insecurities. When I do…I learn God is not vengeful, jealous, or disappointing.
In my darkest moments crying out and demanding His intervention…I have been disappointed by the silence.
In my quietest moments, crying out to be forgiven…I have felt His love tell me…”You’re doing fine, Heber. You’re ok.” I can’t explain it…other than those thoughts come to my mind and make me weep and I choose to believe they are meaningful to me.
I know what the Old Testament describes. But I have never had the personal experience that supports my god is of vengeance or anger.
It helps me come to grips with my own filter and says more about me. I respect others and like to hear their experiences as well. It fascinates me.
I feel like I may be insecure to trust other people, but I do feel safe trusting my image of God that I feel is there and is perfect. And that restores hope to me…and seems to open the way for me to try to practice trusting other people too…even if I am still guarded. I can let go of the descriptions others penned in the bible to tell stories for whatever reason, since that is not my God.
And when i do make a choice to worship…I feel happier. When I’m not in the mood to make that choice…I skip church and give myself a break. But I can still worship like mom3 described.
I’m not sure I can see god intervening or doing anything in my life. But worshipping him helps me overcome my weaknesses and insecurities by feeling safe to worship the only person I can trust always…my Heavenly Father. It seems to fill me with greater capacity to love others who are imperfect.
I think a part of what I was trying to say was wondering whether the practice of worship (the classic definition for worship, not your personal definition) is more of a tradition that is rooted in a belief that god is principally vengeful, insecure, etc. With that in mind, if you stop seeing god as being vengeful, insecure, etc., then your “worship” would naturally have to adapt.
But I think it was the worship that helped me see it different, even if the prior notions of why I thought I needed to worship were the stimulus to a new perspective. Especially the worship when I let go of expectations from it. Great thoughts here. Echoing what many have said, worship for me is feeling connected to my fellow human beings. Striving to be filled with the type of charity that leads to action. I do not seek anymore to “worship” a divine being, in the sense of bowing down before it or striving to keep all the commandments so I can be “worthy.” It is much simpler than that now, and thus, becomes much more beautiful and complex. It is about seeking the divine within myself and allowing that divine spark to grow and flow through me until I feel the desire to reach out to others. That love, that compassion, those feelings of connectedness – that is what I seek in my worship.
DoubtingTom wrote:
Great thoughts here. Echoing what many have said, worship for me is feeling connected to my fellow human beings. Striving to be filled with the type of charity that leads to action. I do not seek anymore to “worship” a divine being, in the sense of bowing down before it or striving to keep all the commandments so I can be “worthy.”It is much simpler than that now, and thus, becomes much more beautiful and complex. It is about seeking the divine within myself and allowing that divine spark to grow and flow through me until I feel the desire to reach out to others. That love, that compassion, those feelings of connectedness – that is what I seek in my worship.
:thumbup: Quote:I think a part of what I was trying to say was wondering whether the practice of worship (the classic definition for worship, not your personal definition) is more of a tradition that is rooted in a belief that god is principally vengeful, insecure, etc.
With that in mind, if you stop seeing god as being vengeful, insecure, etc., then your “worship” would naturally have to adapt.
I don’t know if for me my practice of worship was ever over a god this is insecure, vengeful, etc. I suppose some obedience in life is that way. But for me I grew up with a Dad who had a personal relationship with God. Though his method is traditional it was never out of fear or “God’s going to…”.
Even as my core style of worship has changed, I still value the community worship we have (even though sometimes its really lame). Being together with a hope for good things shapes me like wind over a rock. The luxury I now have, that I didn’t trust before, was being able to sit in the company of that community and shape the worship before me. If the topic doesn’t uplift I choose to read, ponder, or write on things that do. Heart open to the moment.
Sometimes I look forward to a time when I can attend full public community worship sessions that fill me soul every week. I may have to wait a long time.
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