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Ilovechrist77 wrote:
DarkJedi, you said that the roles and attributes of the Godhead don’t completely align with LDS teachings. What do you mean by that? I always thought they did.
Briefly, I think the average Mormon believes God is so loving that he is waiting on our call to provide us with every little (righteous) wish of hearts, even to the extent that he will help us find our lost car keys. My view of God is much more along the deist line. I do believe God loves us, but in a more general “God loves us so he sent his Son” way. I don’t believe God has any desire to be involved in our lives, and I don’t believe he is – although I believe he is capable of doing so if he did desire. I believe Jesus Christ to be pretty much the LDS version, but I’m not sure about the whole pre-Earth thing. I do believe Jesus was the Jehovah of the OT and I believe most, perhaps all, interaction between the ancients and God were with Jehovah/Jesus and therefore Jesus was the giver of the same commandments he came to redeem us from for breaking. I believe the Holy Ghost can be a witness and a comforter but that much of what people believe is his influence is actually just emotion. I’m not sure there’s anything special about the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Orson wrote:When I hear “Gospel” what comes to my mind is the sermon on the mount, and any “truth” that can be properly demonstrated or verified.
Me, too. Because there are so many teachings of men in all churches, LDS included, I believe the actual gospel must be confirmed through the scriptures – mostly the Bible.
SilentDawning wrote:So, strip away some of these items, and you are left with the gospel.
For me, it’s righteous living and development of your personal character, and strength of the transmission of these character qualities to your family that matters. To the extent that the partial rendition of Christ’s life and teachings in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and current scripture and talks do that, I’m all for it. Unfortunately, going to church involves a heavy filtration process and nullification of much of what our children hear at churchl that is extraneous to the pure gospel.
Exactly, that’s what I’m talking about and that’s what I’m trying to do.
I like that so many people are trying to find the pure gospel. I wonder, though, when we start to flesh out the pure version…will we find that we have essentially written what we find with the LDS church organization? I think what we will find is a very cyclical line of thought.
Still, I want to follow this thread since I also want the “pure” version.
So, for me…what I have in my mind is this:
I am assuming that we all believe that Jesus lives and He had an intended purpose and that He encouraged us to become like Him and His Father.
He taught us to love each other.
The “good news” is
He taught us that the atonement helps in many ways (though that is too deep to go into here).
He taught us that we would be resurrected after death and that He would provide a way.
Perhaps everything else really does fall under just a few umbrella thoughts…
the beatitudes, for example…could all fall under “How do we love each other?”
Quote:And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
If you can keep these two commandments, the rest will follow, but are of less importance.
QuestionAbound wrote:I like that so many people are trying to find the pure gospel.
I wonder, though, when we start to flesh out the pure version…will we find that we have essentially written what we find with the LDS church organization? I think what we will find is a very cyclical line of thought.
Still, I want to follow this thread since I also want the “pure” version.
So, for me…what I have in my mind is this:
I am assuming that we all believe that Jesus lives and He had an intended purpose and that He encouraged us to become like Him and His Father.
He taught us to love each other.
The “good news” is
He taught us that the atonement helps in many ways (though that is too deep to go into here).
He taught us that we would be resurrected after death and that He would provide a way.
Perhaps everything else really does fall under just a few umbrella thoughts…
the beatitudes, for example…could all fall under “How do we love each other?”
You and I seem to agree on this QA. As I have “studied this out in my mind” I have realized that there may be some confusion between the gospel and the fullness of the gospel. The church claims to have the fullness of the gospel and I believe it might. I think this fullness may be different, more perhaps, than the gospel known and believed by so many of our Christian brothers and sisters. So while I have realized that I still want to know what these basic elements of the gospel are (and I’m thinking they’ve been covered, there doesn’t seem to be new input), I am now open to what might be contained in the “fullness of the gospel.” However, I’m not entirely sure this fullness is absolutely needed for salvation and/or eternal life.
SamBee, thanks. I am huge on the two great commandments and I do believe that if one does nothing else one can be worthy of eternal life. All other things, IMO, are subordinate to the two great commandments.
Dark Jedi, I think I started my “list” some years ago when I realized that there is a huge difference in church CULTURE and church DOCTRINE and I am now seeing that maybe some doctrine is not the same as the GOSPEL.
It wasn’t until just recently that I became aware of Elder Poelman’s “famous” talk…interesting stuff…and right up the alley with what I believe.
Could it be that we simply need to identify and strip away what the church culture is so that we may more easily identify the most important parts of the Savior’s message?
Maybe we then need to figure out what was RESTORED…meaning, what was it that the Savior had in place during His ministry here on earth that was lost until JS?
What things did JS add to the gospel, whether through revelation or on his own?
When I talk of church culture, I’m referring to…funeral potatoes!
I’m talking about the guilt trip that we are made to feel if we don’t attend a ward function (at least I felt guilty…and maybe it was self-imposed).
I’m talking about the absolute black and white of our behaviors in regards to church activities…should we allow a haunted house for the fall festival or not? Should we have Santa visit us at the Christmas party or not?
I’m talking about VTing/HTing almost being a religion in and of itself.
I’m talking about paying tithing out of fear instead of out of love.
Watching TV on Sunday…playing outside on Sunday…
Appearing perfect…you know, to be an example.
What I don’t have is a better list.
Obviously some church programs are put in place for a reason…maybe that reason is to help us become better people. But I’ll tell you…VTing…sure does stink sometimes. When I was in the RS Pres. I soooo wanted to just let each sister PICK her own VTing route. I wanted to let them select 2 or more sisters that they would really like to get to know better and let them have at it. That way they would have a voice in their route…they would have ownership…they would be excited about it. Instead…we assigned routes with careful thought and consideration and always got push back from a few. It just made me think…the way our current VTing is run, it just seems to have been made for a different time and a different place.
Anyway – I’ll let you throw your thoughts in now.
I tend to be too verbose. I’m not at all concise like Ray … yet.
Quote:I tend to be too verbose. I’m not at all concise like Ray … yet.
Methinks you haven’t read through enough of my comments and personal blog posts to see just how wordy I can get.
😳 :silent: QuestionAbound wrote:Dark Jedi,
It wasn’t until just recently that I became aware of Elder Poelman’s “famous” talk…interesting stuff…and right up the alley with what I believe.
I have only just now become aware of it – I don’t have time to read it tonight, but it’s on my to do list tomorrow. I was a missionary in a foreign land at the time – no GC broadcast, etc. I was just talking to my son about that today – GC was almost as if it didn’t even happen there at that time.
Quote:Could it be that we simply need to identify and strip away what the church culture is so that we may more easily identify the most important parts of the Savior’s message?
Maybe we then need to figure out what was RESTORED…meaning, what was it that the Savior had in place during His ministry here on earth that was lost until JS?
What things did JS add to the gospel, whether through revelation or on his own?
I struggle a bit with the whole restored thing. I am pretty sure the church Jesus organized was not very much like what we have today. I know we’re talking gospel restored here, but it’s also pretty clear the temple had a different purpose then and there were no endowments. Just sayin’.
Quote:When I talk of church culture, I’m referring to…funeral potatoes!
I’m talking about the guilt trip that we are made to feel if we don’t attend a ward function (at least I felt guilty…and maybe it was self-imposed).
I’m talking about the absolute black and white of our behaviors in regards to church activities…should we allow a haunted house for the fall festival or not? Should we have Santa visit us at the Christmas party or not?
I’m talking about VTing/HTing almost being a religion in and of itself.
I’m talking about paying tithing out of fear instead of out of love.
Watching TV on Sunday…playing outside on Sunday…
Appearing perfect…you know, to be an example.
What I don’t have is a better list.
Obviously some church programs are put in place for a reason…maybe that reason is to help us become better people. But I’ll tell you…VTing…sure does stink sometimes. When I was in the RS Pres. I soooo wanted to just let each sister PICK her own VTing route. I wanted to let them select 2 or more sisters that they would really like to get to know better and let them have at it. That way they would have a voice in their route…they would have ownership…they would be excited about it. Instead…we assigned routes with careful thought and consideration and always got push back from a few. It just made me think…the way our current VTing is run, it just seems to have been made for a different time and a different place.
You know those funeral potatoes never really caught on here in my little ward and little stake in the east – maybe no one really knows how to make them. Fortunately no one makes that green Jello with the shredded carrots, either. I certainly agree VT/HT is broken, and I don’t see any evidence of that in ancient Jerusalem, either.
Quote:Anyway – I’ll let you throw your thoughts in now.
I tend to be too verbose. I’m not at all concise like Ray … yet.
Talk about verbose, that’s me! Thanks for your comments.
So I read Elder Poelman’s talk. It does correlate well with what I believe. I suppose no GA would dare give a similar talk based on the what happened with him then. Interestingly, many years ago I had actually reached the same conclusion Elder Poelman implies while an active TBM serving in the bishopric. I once even said in a bishopric meeting something to the effect of the church not really being necessary but that it was a vehicle for bring people salvation and eternal life. I was duly chastised and asked what was meant then by commandments that the church “meet together oft” and so forth. I replied that I thought that commandment was really meant for us to be able to offer each other support and teach each other but that not all people needed that kind of support and could probably learn more by staying home and studying the scriptures for three hours. I didn’t convince anybody, and didn’t intend to, and the subject never came up again.
Thanks for pointing that talk out to me QA. I now have a copy saved for further study and reflection.
Some good parts of Elder Poelman’s original talk I enjoyed: Quote:Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine.
However, there is a distinction between them which is significant and it is very important that this distinction be understood.
Of equal importance is understanding the essential relationship between the gospel and the Church. Failure to distinguish between the two and to comprehend their proper relationship may lead to confusion and misplaced priorities with unrealistic and therefore failed expectations. This in turn may result in diminished benefits and blessings and, in extreme instances, even disaffections.
As I attempt to describe and comment upon some distinguishing characteristics of the gospel and of the Church, at the same time noting their essential relationships, it is my prayer that a perspective may be developed which will enhance the influence of both the gospel and the Church in our lives.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles and laws which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance.
The principles and laws of the gospel never change.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a divine institution administered by the priesthood of God.
The Church has authority to teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the gospel and to administer its essential ordinances.
The gospel is the substance of the divine plan for personal, individual salvation and exaltation. The Church is the delivery system that provides the means and resources to implement this plan in each individual’s life.
…
As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered.
Sometimes traditions, customs, social practices and personal preferences of individual Church members may, through repeated or common usage be misconstrued as Church procedures or policies.
Occasionally, such traditions, customs and practices may even be regarded by some as eternal gospel principles.
Under such circumstances those who do not conform to these cultural standards may mistakenly be regarded as unorthodox or even unworthy. In fact, the eternal principles of the gospel and the divinely inspired Church do accommodate a broad spectrum of individual uniqueness and cultural diversity.
The conformity we require should be according to God’s standards.
The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in fundamental principles and eternal law, including free agency and the divine uniqueness of the individual.
It is important therefore to know the difference between eternal gospel principles which are unchanging, universally applicable and cultural norms which may vary with time and circumstance.
…
In the scriptures we discover that varying institutional forms, procedures and regulations and ceremonies are utilized, all divinely designed to implement eternal principles. The practices and procedures change; the principles do not.
Through scripture study we may learn eternal principles and how to distinguish them from and relate them to institutional resources.
Polman’s talk is great. I have never heard of it. May I ask what “happened” to him? Dax wrote:Polman’s talk is great. I have never heard of it. May I ask what “happened” to him?
From my understanding, nothing happened to him per se, but the talk was changed when it was printed in the Ensign and there was apparently also a revised version video recorded. He did speak in subsequent GC sessions and died in 2011. Both versions are available by doing a search, and there’s even at least one side-by-side version.
Thanks for the info Darkjedi! And I think Poelman’s point is a very good one…that there is a difference between the church and the gospel, and understanding that can really help us avoid some pain. I like to think about it to help me separate out what things God wants me to focus on, and what things, while still important, are still man-made in valiant attempts to institutionalize the gospel for the benefit of the most people (even if not all people).
For example, the gospel might be to love our neighbor, to mourn with those that mourn, to lift those that need to be lifted.
The church teaches us to do our home/visiting teaching to help live the gospel.
The gospel says to obey a word of wisdom to take care of our bodies and be clean and sensitive to the holy spirit.
The church says no tobacco, alcohol, tea, and coffee.
I see the church handbook as the rules and guidelines so the gospel can be taught. Those guidelines will change over time because they are not eternal truths, they are the ways the church currently interprets the principles and by common consent have agreed to teach it.
So, many of the things that I disagree with at church, I can view through a lens that they don’t have to conflict with my acceptance of gospel principles. I can let go of some things and still be devoted to the gospel. I can also accept some things I disagree with, accepting them as “one way” to try to live the gospel principles for me, even if I allow others to live it differently…I don’t equate the two and have to deal with the problems that creates.
Very well put, Heber13. I totally agree with you. I especially liked, among other things, How Elder Poelman pointed out ancient ordinances and traditions and modern ones both aimed at the same goal but different. It certainly has helped my thinking evolve.
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