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I, for one, make no representations at all about the suitability (or merchantability) of the LDS religion for any purpose. Any religion or no religion at all (if such a thing is possible) would do. I simply happen to be LDS. You can take the LDS religion out of the boy, and you can take the boy out of the LDS religion. But he’s still an LDS boy. Cadence wrote:
Your right I keep bringing it up because I am frustrated with my inability to reconcile the two. But lately I am thinking there will never be any kind of answers about the church on factual evidence. It just does not work that way.
I think that is well said. It isn’t supposed to work that way, IMO, because I believe we are here to gain experiences in life, not learn the correct answers on a test. Like the paradox in the garden of Eden, there are no clear ways to reconcile the two … Which then allows for choice, that your eyes may be opened through experience to gain a knowledge that cannot be taught other ways.Because I accept that, I think the church is “true” to many many people, yet it is not perfectly true. I choose to stay.
SilentDawning wrote:So, the litmus test becomes the best of all truth-sensing experiences available to us. For me, it’s things that encourage me to do good, improves my personal peace, and does good in the world. With the exception with some hugely jarring experiences borne out of the frailties of other humans, and the uber-conformist culture of our Church, I’ve experienced these things in strong doses in the LDS Church…and that’s my litmus test for truth.
SilentDawning, I have Baptist, JW, 7th day Adventist, church of Christ, and even Catholic friends that say the same thing about their churches!
f4h1
Orson wrote:.
Just don’t fall into the trap of thinking it is “worthless” because
it doesn’t create the picture that you always thought it should create! The big problem I see and that bothers me the most is that when I took off the blinders, and looked out of the mormon box, I found the picture very different than the one created by years of blindly following what the church taught and continues to teach.
f4h1
Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:SilentDawning wrote:So, the litmus test becomes the best of all truth-sensing experiences available to us. For me, it’s things that encourage me to do good, improves my personal peace, and does good in the world. With the exception with some hugely jarring experiences borne out of the frailties of other humans, and the uber-conformist culture of our Church, I’ve experienced these things in strong doses in the LDS Church…and that’s my litmus test for truth.
SilentDawning, I have Baptist, JW, 7th day Adventist, church of Christ, and even Catholic friends that say the same thing about there church!
f4h1
And about a billion Buddhist and a billion Hindi, and a half a billion Muslims say the exact same thing as well.
All the other religions don’t have to be wrong for the ones I use to be right. I’m with you guys. I see a lot of wonderful people having great experiences in other religions too. I have no problem with that. They exist because they work for people. The results are more important than the brand label, IMO.
Which really proves the point I think Silent Dawn was making. Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:The big problem I see and that bothers me the most is that when I took off the blinders, and looked out of the mormon box, I found the picture very different than the one created by years of blindly following what the church taught and continues to teach.
I know how you feel F4H1, and that is bothersome when I had so much trust and faith in church teachings. But as I worked through my feelings, I now believe it is a good thing…now my pursuit of truth has led to my personal discoveries which are exciting. And I can return to my prior mormon beliefs with a whole new perspective.I think it is foolish to believe that all truth is found in one place or by one method of understanding it. Logic and reasoning can only take you so far, but will leave one lacking in some truth. Same can be said for revelation, experience, science or philosophy. Same can be said for Mormonism, Hinduism, Muslim, or other.
Like my avatar picture depicts, we don’t get to see the whole truth in this mortal life (the white light heading towards the prism), but because we see through a glass darkly (1 Cor 13:12), we are on the other side of the prism in this life, and see the shades of truth, as do others. Even if our eye lenses were perfect, we’d only get to see one or two colors at a time, bringing us closer to truth, but not having the whole of it. Then factor in none of us have perfect lenses, and they vary by person, and truth has more permutations. Then factor in that once observed, we must interpret the light and knowledge, and there are even greater permutations of truth.
I still have hope there is truth out there to be found, I just need to be comfortable with finding it in pieces, and enjoy the journey to seek it, which provides experience in this life, and reward. I still cling to my Mormon truth, but now allow myself to salt it with truth found outside the church as well.
Cadence, this is just my opinion, but if you are seeking ALL truth with only one tool (logic/reason), you will continue to find frustration. However, having said that, I think you may become a master logician.
Heber13 wrote:
Cadence, this is just my opinion, but if you are seeking ALL truth with only one tool (logic/reason), you will continue to find frustration. However, having said that, I think you may become a master logician.You are probably correct, but there is a reason I turned to logic and analysis. First of all it may be in my nature to view the world with skeptical eyes. But more than that reason and logic tends to give me a more accurate picture of the world in which I live. From personal experience things of a spiritual nature or I would argue an emotional nature tend to lead me in so many different directions it is confusing. When I was young I had few experiences, so things seemed to follow what the spirit said. As I got older and had more experiences the contradictions in what the spirit said and what the reality ended up being began to pile up. Until one day I had such a conflict with what the spirit told me and what actually happened that I was thrown into a total faith crisis. It became apparent that things of the spirit for me were not a dependable way to get answers or chart my course in life. So I contend if you rely to much on a feeling or a perceived voice in your head just be willing to accept the fact that it may not turn out as you thought. Sometimes it will sometimes it will not. It is a coin toss.
Cadence wrote:So I contend if you rely to much on a feeling or a perceived voice in your head just be willing to accept the fact that it may not turn out as you thought. Sometimes it will sometimes it will not. It is a coin toss.
That is how I see it. And some would say, why not? You’re bound to get what you thought you would and what you want 50% of the time. That sounds about right to me from my experience in the church.
Quote:So I contend if you rely too much on a feeling or a perceived voice in your head just be willing to accept the fact that it may not turn out as you thought. Sometimes it will sometimes it will not. It is a coin toss.
Amen – just like relying too much on just your intellect, which, if you think about it, is just another voice in your head.
:ugeek: Old-Timer wrote:Quote:So I contend if you rely too much on a feeling or a perceived voice in your head just be willing to accept the fact that it may not turn out as you thought. Sometimes it will sometimes it will not. It is a coin toss.
Amen – just like relying too much on just your intellect, which, if you think about it, is just another voice in your head.
:ugeek: When intellect fails me which it does from time to time it is easy to admit I was wrong, because it was just me. I made the incorrect decision. It may have been based on faulty facts or maybe I just did not have enough information to start with. But it is still just a conclusion I came to all by myself. When the “spirit” leads you to make mistakes or at a minimum gives you conflicting promptings it really messes with your head. It is as if God is full of confusion and misdirection. It is not to say that I discount prayer and the voice of the spirit, I just say be careful because I do not think the spirit whispers to individuals nearly as much as many claim or think. It is rare and only when absolutely necessary for that individual. So the rest of the time we are left to our own devices to pick the path we walk. So I would say rely on intellect 95% of the time and the spirit 5%.
I’m not arguing with that general idea, Cadence. I just believe personally that it’s not as clear-cut and distinct as most people think. I believe there are times when “my good idea” probably wasn’t my idea – and times when the Spirit’s voice probably wasn’t the Spirit’s voice. I have come to believe we are MUCH more complex than most people realize, and I’ve generally stopped trying to distinguish between intellect and inspiration (except in cases where the source seems really clear to me) –
since, in the end, I’ve chosen to “own” my resulting actions no matter the source. Fwiw, if anyone is interested in an example of one of the cases where the source seems really clear to me – and that source wasn’t me, I posted on my blog about an experience 20 years ago that I can’t chalk up to anything but pure revelation.
“Undeniable Revelation Really Does Occur: My Own Family’s Christmas Star”( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2010/12/undeniable-revelation-really-does-occur.html Cadence wrote:It is not to say that I discount prayer and the voice of the spirit, I just say be careful because I do not think the spirit whispers to individuals nearly as much as many claim or think. It is rare and only when absolutely necessary for that individual. So the rest of the time we are left to our own devices to pick the path we walk. So I would say rely on intellect 95% of the time and the spirit 5%.
I would agree in most part with this statement, Cadence, although I probably put a different split on intellect/spirit based on my experience for me, however I accept what you are saying and also think direct divine intervention may be far less frequent than many think.
I also think sometimes the spirit can work through our logic and intellect…and deciding what comes from our thoughts and what may be inspired thoughts can also be complex.
In addition there are things experienced outside our logic, such as art or love. However, making important decisions based on feelings from art or love can be risky, which I think is your point, right? I guess I believe that while that is risky, in some circumstances I think it may provide better results than using logic, however, that club may only be removed from the bag and used in rare occasions, while logic may be more like a 7-iron which is used more frequently and with better accuracy for most shots…but that doesn’t mean we only carry the 7-iron in the bag, right?
Heber13 wrote:Cadence wrote:I also think sometimes the spirit can work through our logic and intellect…and deciding what comes from our thoughts and what may be inspired thoughts can also be complex.
In addition there are things experienced outside our logic, such as art or love. However, making important decisions based on feelings from art or love can be risky, which I think is your point, right? I guess I believe that while that is risky, in some circumstances I think it may provide better results than using logic, however, that club may only be removed from the bag and used in rare occasions, while logic may be more like a 7-iron which is used more frequently and with better accuracy for most shots…but that doesn’t mean we only carry the 7-iron in the bag, right?
Well said
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