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Eventually we need to stop blaming the local leaders and the members, and start placing the blame on the institution itself. Yeah, that would be a monumental day for the church.
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On Own Now wrote:Obviously, we all formulate our opinions based on our own observations. In the 20 years of my faith transition, in which I have been very open with local church leadership… number of Stake Presidency members that have have asked me what the Church could do differently to help people like me (aside from helping me to get my faith back): 0. Number of Bishopric members: 0. Number of Elders Quorum leaders: 0. Number of ward members: 0. Number of home teachers: 0. I don’t believe they are interested in seeing it from our perspective, only from theirs.
Yes, it’s been my experience that a BP or SP will often approach any given problem in the same manner: 1) Are you attending church? 2) Are you reading your scriptures? 3) Are you praying? It really doesn’t matter what the nature of the problem is, the questions nearly always get asked.
Maybe local leaders are trained to always ask those questions, maybe they ask them because they’re following the example they’ve seen for so long, maybe they ask those questions because in the majority of cases getting people to a place where they can answer those questions in the affirmative has led to a resolution of whatever issue the member was experiencing; no idea, it is what it is. I liked the honesty in church0333’s comment:
church0333 wrote:I can’t read the BofM much anymore because without faith the book just doesn’t ring true, let alone even plausible and after studying what critics say about the book, the more I read it the more I feel the it was a 19th century work of fiction. The same thing with the D and C, how JS made up stuff to get people to do what he wanted or to promote his ideas.
A long time ago I went to my local leader with my issues and I felt
exactlythe same as church0333 with respect to the BoM. Without fail I was asked: How is your reading in the BoM coming along? to which I replied: Every time I read it I only see the faults. I didn’t relate this but at the time I only saw evidences that the book was fiction when I read it, the more I was coerced to read the more the resentment toward the book grew. So what didn’t the church understand about me at the time? They honestly believe that if a person would just read more from the scriptures that they would feel the spirit and regain their testimony. One solution fits all.
Quickly going back to the three questions:
1) Are you attending church? 2) Are you reading your scriptures? 3) Are you praying?
The focus is on what the member is not doing and when that becomes the model for ministering to the saints it’s easy to see how we get into the mindset where we think that people with issues are sinners, led by satan, seeking mammon, etc.
What an utterly depressing post I’ve put together. The positives… the positives…
So where do we go? How do we change? How could leaders better minister to us?
I will say that I have had some very good leaders and I’m trying to think how they interfaced with the conundrum that is me. I’ve probably got the best BP in the church right now, so that helps. I know that I’m loved no matter what. In him I’ve seen that his priority is people with policy and programs coming in at an extremely distant second place. In fact they probably got lapped a few times. Maybe all BPs/SPs would do better by
notknowing what’s in the handbook. So I didn’t really address the issue. What could the church have done to help me? Honestly, what you all here have done for me. The problem is that our voice is often labeled apostate, suppressed, or relegated to a corner. How will people going through a FC get the help they need if the light is hidden under a bushel?
I also think that the church’s approach is to get people to go back to where they were before, it’s how a stage 3 organization/person would interact with someone in stage 4. They see a person in stage 4 as someone that has regressed when in reality they have moved forward. Stage 4 stinks, I think getting out of it entails letting go of some anger and bitterness and rediscovering love in life… and all of those things are well within the mission of the church. The tough bit is that someone in stage 4 probably no longer wants help from the church. I know I wanted to be alone to work through things. Maybe the counsel should be give space, show love, and be patient.
On Own Now wrote:I don’t know if the Church really understands why people like us “fall away” (their term). I believe most faithful members, when the see an empty pew that was formerly the realm of a member of the Church, they assume that the person “lost their testimony” and attribute it to sin, lack of faith, personal offence, etc…Although I don’t expect it, I think
the Church could learn a lot by trying to figure us out…I wish the Church understood that for many that suffer a faith crisis, it was something that they neither sought out nor expected…I came to a point where I realized that the Church was not what it claimed..and that was a tearful realization that hit me like a sucker punch to the gut. I have since tried earnestly to make a go of it. I tried for a long time to talk to people that could help me overcome my doubts. I tried to read the BofM, I tried to pray, I tried anything that could help. In prayer, I begged God to show me the way, and I got silence in response to my pleas…I didn’t “drift away”. I didn’t “lose” my faith or my testimony. I didn’t “fall into sin”. I wasn’t “led away by Satan”. I wasn’t overcome by “the cares of the world”. Most importantly, it wasn’t my choice…I wish the Church understood that it is bleeding not just people, but very good, stalwart members of the Church. I wish the Church understood that it is often the Church itself, rather than the member, that is the catalyst for the “fall”…I think the historical essays they are publishing now and talks in recent years like Holland’s about the Book of Mormon, Uchtdorf’s about how we should “doubt our doubts”, and Cook’s “Can ye feel so now” show that they are well aware of a significant number of members that are not completely on board with what the Church teaches. What they need to realize is that many if not the majority of disaffected members are never going to “repent” and regain a traditional LDS testimony and they often only put up with the Church as much as they still do mostly for the sake of their relationships with remaining faithful members. So in cases like this any hint of the idea that we are broken and need to be fixed mostly adds to the problem on both sides. It is aggravating to many disaffected members that already feel like they are doing fine with their current beliefs and/or they can’t really believe anything different than what they already do and it also encourages some of the remaining faithful members to have unrealistic expectations and judgmental and disrespectful attitudes toward members with different beliefs.
nibbler wrote:Maybe the counsel should be give space, show love, and be patient.
Yes, yes I think that is a big part of it. I would also like to see more confidence that truth will cut its own way, it doesn’t need extra help. We can get so attached to our traditions and image that we are afraid to move forward to the further light and knowledge.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:So in cases like this any hint of the idea that we are broken and need to be fixed mostly adds to the problem on both sides. It is aggravating to many disaffected members that already feel like they are doing fine with their current beliefs and/or they can’t really believe anything different than what they already do and it also encourages some of the remaining faithful members to have unrealistic expectations and judgmental and disrespectful attitudes toward members with different beliefs.
Agreed. I am not intimately familiar with all churches, but I was Catholic before I was Mormon, and I have over time looked into other Protestant churches and at Judaism. None that I am fairly familiar with require the same type of dogmatic adherence to every bit of doctrine, and for the most part they are quite comfortable with the idea that people don’t necessarily believe or agree with all of it. They really only seem to care that people believe in the core values of the church which is mostly a belief in Jesus Christ (Judaism excepted, of course). As is alluded to by some on this thread, the church is getting the point in size and geographic dispersal that it needs to come to grips with the idea that not every one of the millions is going to believe every bit of it. Again, I do think some in the hierarchy of church leadership do understand it, but I don’t think they do a very good job at getting the message out.
It’s interesting because a large part of my faith crisis lies with the church and leadership. Most of my life I’ve been on the outskirts of the ward and therefore ignored. I wish church leaders would reach out to those of us on the fringe. Unfortunately it seems that unless you’re married with a faithful spouse and have kids you don’t matter. In fast and testimony meeting a few weeks ago I kept hearing ”I know the church is true” and I thought ” what does that even mean?” The church.. Not the gospel I think we focus too much on the church and not enough on the gospel and Jesus Christ nibbler wrote:On Own Now wrote:Obviously, we all formulate our opinions based on our own observations. In the 20 years of my faith transition, in which I have been very open with local church leadership… number of Stake Presidency members that have have asked me what the Church could do differently to help people like me (aside from helping me to get my faith back): 0. Number of Bishopric members: 0. Number of Elders Quorum leaders: 0. Number of ward members: 0. Number of home teachers: 0. I don’t believe they are interested in seeing it from our perspective, only from theirs.
Yes, it’s been my experience that a BP or SP will often approach any given problem in the same manner: 1) Are you attending church? 2) Are you reading your scriptures? 3) Are you praying? It really doesn’t matter what the nature of the problem is, the questions nearly always get asked.
I spoke to a relative recently about struggling with some mental health issues towards the end of last year. His first questions: “Are you reading your scriptures, are you saying your prayers.”
I nearly exploded!
TataniaAvalon wrote:In fast and testimony meeting a few weeks ago I kept hearing ”I know the church is true” and I thought ” what does that even mean?” The church.. Not the gospel I think we focus too much on the church and not enough on the gospel and Jesus Christ
I know where you’re coming from, that phrase sticks out to me as well. It means something to the people saying it and the majority of the people hearing it so I give it a pass. Still I think people would get more out of bearing their testimony if they could better articulate what it is.
At best it’s a condensed way of saying “I know that this church is the the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth with which the Lord is well pleased.” At worst it’s just something that’s repeated out of routine. People repeat it because that’s what people hear.
TataniaAvalon wrote:I think we focus too much on the church and not enough on the gospel and Jesus Christ
I completely agree, and that is one of the things I wish the Church understood. Many of us, here, maintain a faith in Christianity, but don’t find enough of it in the LDS Church to satisfy. For several years after my initial FC, I considered myself a christian. What I found frustrating was that I felt alone as a christian in the midst of the Church. I had to really work at focusing on the basic messages of Christianity, because, frankly, they are well camouflaged in our Church. It’s there, but you have to search, it doesn’t come naturally. We say “Christ” a lot, we say “The Lord” a lot, but we tend to use these in generic deistic terms, as in the Mutual Theme this year, “Come Unto Christ”.DarkJedi wrote:DevilsAdvocate wrote:So in cases like this any hint of the idea that we are broken and need to be fixed mostly adds to the problem on both sides. It is aggravating to many disaffected members that already feel like they are doing fine with their current beliefs and/or they can’t really believe anything different than what they already do and it also encourages some of the remaining faithful members to have unrealistic expectations and judgmental and disrespectful attitudes toward members with different beliefs.
Agreed. I am not intimately familiar with all churches, but
I was Catholic before I was Mormon, and I have over time looked into other Protestant churches and at Judaism. None that I am fairly familiar with require the same type of dogmatic adherence to every bit of doctrine, and for the most part they are quite comfortable with the idea that people don’t necessarily believe or agree with all of it. They really only seem to care that people believe in the core valuesof the church which is mostly a belief in Jesus Christ (Judaism excepted, of course). As is alluded to by some on this thread, the church is getting the point in size and geographic dispersal that it needs to come to grips with the idea that not every one of the millions is going to believe every bit of it.Again, I do think some in the hierarchy of church leadership do understand it, but I don’t think they do a very good job at getting the message out. I think this observation is one of the most significant differences between the LDS Church and most other Christian sects of comparable size or larger that I know of. To be honest the LDS Church currently reminds me of the JWs and Muslims more than most other religious groups and I’m not sure this is what the leaders were really aiming for. Basically the majority of active members take many of the doctrines, rules, and routines extremely seriously and expect other active members to go along with all of this as well. I think some of this is a largely unintended by-product of temple worthiness interviews stressing the supposed importance of very specific ideas like having a testimony of the restoration, atonement, etc.
Also, I think many of the leaders are basically caught up in a feedback loop (vicious cycle) where they see many members that don’t fit this profile fall away and interpret it as confirmation of the idea that if you can’t answer these questions the “right” way then you are in serious spiritual danger so they continue to emphasize these specific points as being extremely important but the net result is that it maintains an environment where many that don’t agree with some of this will understandably feel very uncomfortable in the Church and often avoid it as much as possible. Personally I think allowing a little more flexibility in how members can interpret some of these doctrines would go along way toward fixing what is wrong with the Church without them having to openly admit that some of their fundamental truth claims are false or upset most of the existing orthodox believers that much.
Here is what I wish the Church understood about us: 1. We are disaffected for reasons that go beyond laziness or sin. Laziness and sin are not the reasons.
2. Often, its the impact of church policies that don’t handle exceptions very well that cause our own disaffection. For example, the one year waiting period if you get married civilly that alienates non-member family and creates tension between one’s church commitment and biological family commitment — for one’s entire life. As I get older, I realized that none of the people who attended my sealing are important in my life now, but my non-member family WOULD BE important and support of me as a person (not a Mormon, as a person) if I hadn’t slapped them in the face by denying them a presence at my wedding.
3. Demanding church leaders who expect the commitment of a paid employee when the person is essentially a volunteer.
4. Sudden loss of loyalty to us as members when we no longer show the level of commitment leaders would like to see to further church interests. Ostracization over issues that have nothing to do with pure Christlike behavior – only deviance from Church policies.
5. Churchianity that replaces pure Christianity. This is an egocentrism toward the church that essentially puts the Church at the center of the universe rather than Christ.
6. The sheer monotony of the church experience. We could all list the monotony
I think this is one of the best posts I’ve read on this site. Maybe the best. Joni wrote:I think this is one of the best posts Ive read on this site. Maybe the best.
Yes. Thanks SD.
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