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For the first time in a long time, I had one of those sleepless nights, pondering my fate. I am glad to say this doesn’t happen too often now, but my anxiety suddenly struck me, as I realized I could be in one of three positions, two of which were very dangerous… 1) The church is true, but I’m not following it well enough, and breaking enough rules to get me into trouble. So it’s right, but I’m doing the wrong things.
2) The church isn’t true, but I’m being deceived by my feelings and other things, and I could be in big trouble as a result. So the church is wrong, but I’m trying to do the right things.
3) None of this matters.
Now no 3 can be completely disregarded, because it’s not a problem if I’m wasting my time for nothing. I’d be going to nothing anyway.
I did raise some of these concerns with my bishop recently, and he gave me some wise words, saying, “Well, I’m the bishop here, and I’ll tell you that the church is true, but if you go down to the church along the road, the minister will tell you the opposite.” He said I shouldn’t “trust in the arm of man”, but should pray about it, which I have been doing. He also said, rightly IMHO, that some of the things I am now doing, and not doing would be approved of in the church, and also in other churches. I said I agreed.
So some of it does feel right to me, some of it is a bit full on, but what if no 2 is the case? I’d hate to go to Hell (or wherever) because of my sincere feelings about something I believe to be at least partly true. I know there are problems with the church, but it would be terrible if all the positive things that latter day saints do went out of the window because of some central doctrine being false. I’d like to think that God, if he’s out there, wouldn’t punish all of us for something we did in the right mind and right attitude, for the right reasons. I can look at the church and see both good (a wonderful record of service and charity, people being genuinely reformed, a positive attitude towards family relations, Book of Mormon) and bad (historical racism, sexism, revisions to history and the scriptures, church business dealings, Book of Abraham etc)
I have thought of that question from time to time. A very good friend of mine who had a masters degree in church history wrote a paper on that once and if I find it I will cut and paste here. I recall he gave an example of a bunch of people being sent out into a huge sports arena to play a game, but they had never been told the rules of the game. Some were sent to outer darkness because they had not followed the rules correctly, even though they won the most points. I have always seen God as a loving mature parent. We were put on this earth with a viel of forgettfulness and we are suppose to live by faith, not knowing for sure. There is a scripture that says, “Now we see through a glass darkly.’ We are like the blind, gropping, touching, using our other senses to try and figure out where to go. People along the way are telling us to go here or go there; that their way is the right way. But, who do you trust? Trust takes time and getting to know the person who is trying to guide you. Would I, as a parent, condemn my child for not being able to figure out which of the guide posts was written by mom? I believe the thing that is most important to God is to see where your heart is. Yes, we may be judged by our actions, but also the desires of our hearts. My heart tells me what kind of a person I want to become. I think we will be with people that are most like ourselves. So, if all of us on staylds end up in the same place in the next life, I will be perfectly happy. Well, SamBee, I will be honest with you. The church is not true. And it is true. It is false. And it is not false. It is bad. And it is good. It is rotten. And it is wonderful! My guess is that the feelings you are having are due to a conflict between your true self (the child of God) and your false self (the evil spirit or the ego). I’m guessing something is not right within, and somebody in there knows you need to be careful, go slow, and keep listening. Somebody inside there knows you are perhaps in danger of making rash judgments and decisions.
When the time is right, I believe you will be filled with an unmistakeable peace and bliss for the direction you want to go. I believe you will see clearly with no hesitation or fear.
If the church isn’t true, will you stay? If you don’t stay, where will you go? If you go, will you do better and be better somewhere else? Where can you best grow, wake up, learn, and serve?
Sam, I believe that one of the real paradoxes of Mormonism is that we teach on one hand of the absolute need for ordinances and obedience to eternal law, while teaching on the other hand that all who ever have lived have the same opportunity through vicarious work – that they will be judged solely on how well they tried to live what they understood. So, I am left with the following thoughts:
1) “The Church” is “true” only in the sense that it points us to God (like “true north” and an arrow that flies “true”) – and it’s only “truer” if it points us to something toward which we are not pointed elsewhere;
2) The “unique direction” toward which the LDS Church points its members is becoming like God.
3) At best, if that is an actual possibility, we can be blessed greatly by such “truth” – as long as we also internalize the core concept of grace that keeps discouragement and paralyzing guilt from destroying us.
4) At best, if that is not an actual possibility, we grow and become much better people, and we bless others through that process – then we get exactly what everyone else gets who lived according to their conscience.
5) At worst, we develop a superiority complex, become obnoxious jerks and end up miserable ’cause nobody wants to be with us forever anyway. That’s “true” regardless of denominational affiliation, however, so there’s nothing uniquely Mormon about it.
The real irony, imo, is that Mormonism allows for us to be wrong and still saved/exalted, while most of Protestantism (and especially most of evangelism) posits the absolute need to be doctrinally right – or, at least, not wrong in unacceptable ways – like Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. obviously are.
A classic example of the Mormon version of Pascal’s Wager: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager Pascal proved through logic and mathematics that the optimal choice, seeing that we can not prove the existence of God one way or the other, is to live a good life as if God exists.
Applying that to Mormonism specifically? That’s a little more complicated, YMMV.
For me and my personal journey, I decided like this: Since I can not prove through reason that anyone else has a better clue about what God wants me to do, I have to do the best with what I can figure out on my own or through careful examination and/or direct personal revelation. God’s just going to have to be satisfied with that … ’cause that’s the best I got to work with.
When this light bulb turned on over my head, that “ah ha!” moment, was when I became friends with God. That is how I describe it. We’re pals now. He’s gonna do with me whatever he wants after this life (and in it while I am still living). That’s cool with me. I’m really not going to sweat it anymore. He never really wanted me to be losing sleep over it either. We understand each other, and I want to do everything I can to help him out down here in the trenches.
Brian Johnston wrote:A classic example of the Mormon version of Pascal’s Wager:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager Pascal proved through logic and mathematics that the optimal choice, seeing that we can not prove the existence of God one way or the other, is to live a good life as if God exists.
But what God do you choose to try and follow. The Mormon God, Evangelical, Jewish, Muslim, Buddha or something else you create. I belive most of us want to follow God, But it is the abstract nature of God that makes it difficult to choose a path.
Pascal’s Wager is intentionally simple so the logic and math work, IMO. It’s more of a theory that describes an idea, not so much something directly practical. How to apply that concept to Mormonism? *shrug* hard to say for sure. Trying adds in additional variables. I would boil it down to this: Not knowing for sure, it is best to try and figure out God and what God wants from us. We might fail, but not trying will surely fail.
Quote:But what God do you choose to try and follow. The Mormon God, Evangelical, Jewish, Muslim, Buddha or something else you create. I believe most of us want to follow God, But it is the abstract nature of God that makes it difficult to choose a path.
So how else will we choose a path? I don’t know … in absence of clear direction, I choose a path and give it a try. If God isn’t going to be more clear, than He is going to have to chill out and deal with my fumbling around the best I can. I choose Mormonism … plus and minus a bit.
Cadence, that question is one of the reasons I love “pure Mormonism”. I will take a God who is a loving Father whom we can emulate and strive to be like, and who blesses ALL his chlidren regardless of their circumstances – even the seriously rebellious ones (minus a few absolutely evil ones), over a God who is separated from us by an uncrossable chasm and who sends people to Hell based on nothing but his whim. I like much of the concept of “God” in Buddhism and Hinduism much better than the core nature of God taught in most of Protestantism – but I love the symbolism of a Savior and Redeemer within Christianity, perhaps only because of the Mormon slant with which I was raised. I really loathe the concept of Calvin’s God and the iterations of it throughout much of Christianity.
Brian Johnston wrote:Quote:But what God do you choose to try and follow. The Mormon God, Evangelical, Jewish, Muslim, Buddha or something else you create. I believe most of us want to follow God, But it is the abstract nature of God that makes it difficult to choose a path.
So how else will we choose a path? I don’t know … in absence of clear direction, I choose a path and give it a try. If God isn’t going to be more clear, than He is going to have to chill out and deal with my fumbling around the best I can. I choose Mormonism … plus and minus a bit.
I can accept that reasoning.
Well there is a kind of Pascal’s Wager in here, but that’s partly covered by option 3. If option 3 is the case, then it’s not a problem. However, if I am getting into some kind of false church, with a false prophet, is it possible that I could be deceived. After all, it is said that Satan can appear as an Angel of Light. I think evil is very much a seducer. Hardly anyone believes themselves to be evil, but they are drawn into it. Now I’m not saying that Mormons are evil, but that they might be being misled into something which is not good.
I’ll discuss more of my
positivethoughts on the church later. Quote:I have thought of that question from time to time. A very good friend of mine who had a masters degree in church history wrote a paper on that once and if I find it I will cut and paste here. I recall he gave an example of a bunch of people being sent out into a huge sports arena to play a game, but they had never been told the rules of the game. Some were sent to outer darkness because they had not followed the rules correctly, even though they won the most points.
It sometimes feels like basketball in the dark. Someone, somewhere may eventually get a hoop if their energy doesn’t give out first.
Quote:Yes, we may be judged by our actions, but also the desires of our hearts. My heart tells me what kind of a person I want to become. I think we will be with people that are most like ourselves. So, if all of us on staylds end up in the same place in the next life, I will be perfectly happy.
This is part of my thinking just now. I have even prayed, not only for truth, but that my motives be taken into consideration so that I’m not unfairly judged. I don’t have a huge amount to gain materially from being in the church, and I didn’t go back because I was interested in a particular woman etc.
Quote:The church is not true. And it is true. It is false. And it is not false. It is bad. And it is good. It is rotten. And it is wonderful!
My guess is that the feelings you are having are due to a conflict between your true self (the child of God) and your false self (the evil spirit or the ego). I’m guessing something is not right within, and somebody in there knows you need to be careful, go slow, and keep listening. Somebody inside there knows you are perhaps in danger of making rash judgments and decisions.
When the time is right, I believe you will be filled with an unmistakeable peace and bliss for the direction you want to go. I believe you will see clearly with no hesitation or fear.
If the church isn’t true, will you stay? If you don’t stay, where will you go? If you go, will you do better and be better somewhere else? Where can you best grow, wake up, learn, and serve?
I think there is an internal conflict, but not purely on the level of bad vs good. I think there is a certain amount of confusion and paranoia in there too – double paranoia, because I feel if I go to one side, I might be going to the wrong one.
In the LDS people who’ve heard the gospel and reject it are supposed to go Telestial, or worse. (Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?) For other Christians, I then have the dilemma, of what happens if I follow something knowing to some degree it was wrong on some level…
While I agree it’s not a case of the church being completely wrong, and completely right, my worry is that I’m taking the wrong side here unwittingly. I do have a kind of testimony of the Book of Mormon, I do enjoy sacrament meeting and a lot of the teachings, and I even admire Joseph Smith (although not in an entirely orthodox way, I tend to think of him as a lovable rogue or rough diamond, a kind of cross between John the Baptist and Wild Bill Hickok. They say that God moves in mysterious ways, and I think that JS might qualify as one of these) So there definitely are things about the church I like, however, I’ve also enjoyed doing certain things which the church would consider utterly wrong!
Old-Timer wrote:Sam, I believe that one of the real paradoxes of Mormonism is that we teach on one hand of the absolute need for ordinances and obedience to eternal law, while teaching on the other hand that all who ever have lived have the same opportunity through vicarious work – that they will be judged solely on how well they tried to live what they understood.
Agreed. I always had a real issue as a Protestant as to what happened to the “Righteous Pagans” (as they are sometimes called), people in the “wrong” churches, with different doctrines etc. Why should a Mormon, a Jehovah’s Witness, a Unitarian and a Roman Catholic be all judged on the rightness of their notions about the Godhead or Trinity (all of these groups have a slightly different take)?
Quote:1) “The Church” is “true” only in the sense that it points us to God (like “true north” and an arrow that flies “true”) – and it’s only “truer” if it points us to something toward which we are not pointed elsewhere;
The Liahona principle? Works for me some of the time, but not all of the time.
Quote:2) The “unique direction” toward which the LDS Church points its members is becoming like God.
3) At best, if that is an actual possibility, we can be blessed greatly by such “truth” – as long as we also internalize the core concept of grace that keeps discouragement and paralyzing guilt from destroying us.
4) At best, if that is not an actual possibility, we grow and become much better people, and we bless others through that process – then we get exactly what everyone else gets who lived according to their conscience.
5) At worst, we develop a superiority complex, become obnoxious jerks and end up miserable ’cause nobody wants to be with us forever anyway. That’s “true” regardless of denominational affiliation, however, so there’s nothing uniquely Mormon about it.
Amen to all that. I think it might be more helpful to see this as a form of improvement rather than apotheosis. I think if we live all that, we’re getting at least the works part of the contract. It’s the faith bit that gets all mixed up, hence the dilemma.
5 – Agreed. Arrogance and smugness are spiritual hindrances.
Quote:When this light bulb turned on over my head, that “ah ha!” moment, was when I became friends with God. That is how I describe it. We’re pals now. He’s gonna do with me whatever he wants after this life (and in it while I am still living). That’s cool with me. I’m really not going to sweat it anymore. He never really wanted me to be losing sleep over it either. We understand each other, and I want to do everything I can to help him out down here in the trenches.
There is something in the whole “surrendering upwards” thing. I believe “Islam” means something like that in Arabic. I agree with the principle of “Choose the Right” (easier said than done though), but when it comes to purely spiritual (as opposed to works) stuff, then it’s harder. Like you (yep, I’ve listened to your podcast
I’m in a bizarre situation since coming back to the church. In some ways I feel so much better, more secure & assured and in others confused, slightly paranoid and a bit down. I’m trying to think of another time in my life when I had such contradictory notions and emotions at the same time. Cognitive dissonance, skeptics would say, but there’s a little more to it than that.
Quote:But what God do you choose to try and follow. The Mormon God, Evangelical, Jewish, Muslim, Buddha or something else you create. I belive most of us want to follow God, But it is the abstract nature of God that makes it difficult to choose a path.
I’ve got that dilemma exactly without even leaving Christianity. I’m worried enough about going to the fiery pit without being reincarnated as a Preta (Hungry Ghost) or going to a non-kosher part of Sheol.
i had this conversation with a Pentacostal minister recently. I like the Min Max Regret approach to decision making. You basically look at each alternative and estimate what the maximum negative consequence is if you’re wrong. Then you pick the alternative that has minimum amount of negative consequences for you.
If I’m a member of the Church, and I shouldn’t be, then I see no consequences. I feel I’m living at least the standards of other religions in the mainstream Christian world, so I don’t expect the eternal circumstances to be all that bad.
If I choose not to be a member of the Church, and I SHOULD be a member of the Church, then I may be shorting myself out of eternal exhaltation and eternal family. And the lower behavioral standards in other Christian religions may have me falling short of what God expects.
Therefore, being a member of the Church provides the minimum eternal regret between my two considered alternatives.
Also, if God tells me I’m wrong after death, I’m going to point to this confusing world where you don’t have evidence of the truth right in front of you. The only thing left to avail me was spiritual feelings. And I acted on them. And, i f I’m wrong, and He’s telling me what I SHOULD be doing for the rest of eternity, I will tell him that he has my whole life as evidence of my desires to follow Him. So, I will align myself with the new correct philosophy, THE SAME WAY I DID ON EARTH when I thought Mormonism was the correct way to go. He already knows where my commitment was due to my willingness to shoulder a religion which requires more sacrifice than other religions. The proof is in the pudding of my life — just point me to where you want me to go Heavenly Father — my life as a Mormon tells you the lengths I’m willing to go to obey thy will.
I’ll be real surprised if he doesn’t honor that!!!
Protestantism (and Mormonism inherited this) has this weird notion of belief we are talking about in this thread. I say weird because if you step way back from it all and look at it, we are saying the most important aspect of religion is focused on picking the right set of beliefs. That is really kind of dysfunctional. It isn’t about doing anything per se, due to the concept of atonement and grace, but in simply accepting the beliefs as truth. You have to profess/believe the right set of truths or you fail … eternally. Mormonism makes this a little more cheery by saying those who fail go to heaven (instead of hell), and those that succeed in picking the right answer to the trick question of life go to a better heaven. That’s nice, but it’s still kind of weird. Being good is better than believing good.
Brian Johnston wrote:..For me and my personal journey, I decided like this: Since I can not prove through reason that anyone else has a better clue about what God wants me to do, I have to do the best with what I can figure out on my own or through careful examination and/or direct personal revelation. God’s just going to have to be satisfied with that … I’m really not going to sweat it anymore.
Yep. I hear that.
I sincerely believe that the Mormon church is a divine institution that “leads people in the right direction”. Probably, IMO,
one of MANY such institutions. If I can continue to reconcile my differences with the culture and doctrine issues, and the church will “allow” me to remain and be part of it – on my own terms– I will stay in it. I guess for me the good outweighs the bad, at least for the time being. I don’t stay because I believe it is the “one and only true church on the face of the earth”. I stay because, despite it’s many flaws and problems, it does point in the right direction. I also have pondered the dilemma of “what if the church hierarchy leads the people in the “wrong” direction or to do evil?” Well, IMO, that has not happened, at least not in the last 30 years (glad I didn’t’ live in the 1800s!), and if that changes, then I will leave. I guess it goes back to the recent thread that asked the question if “would you follow the prophet no matter what?” No. I don’t and I won’t.
Weird is the right word to describe the pretzel my brain gets twisted into when I remember the pickle SilentDawning is describing. Some problems that spring to my mind about the pickle are 1) what about the truths and helps that aren’t really available within the church, and what about the false notions that are there? Unless you personally transcend the church, staying in it may very well not be safe or ultimately helpful. What if you need prayer and fasting in the ancient sense, not the modern LDS sense? What if you need to avoid making promises and taking on debts, because your home and car loans are driving you crazy? What if you need to give up on the prosperity gospel and find the kingdom of heaven here and now?
2) why worry about having a church at all? Might the same reasoning lead you to choose None Of The Above, relying on the mercy of God? I think the decision has to be about more than fear and uncertainty. It would be best if it had something to do with love and adventure.
I like just dwelling in the subjective reality that the Highest is perfectly loving, wise, and merciful, and that I can access those attributes now and forever. In that frame of mind, it really doesn’t matter to me about some objective “truth” of the Church, since I am already in Heaven. From there, the only question is where and with whom I will be as I keep learning and growing.
p.s. SamBee, I apologize for forgetting you are a prospective member, not a current one. My bad.
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