What if the Church ISN’T true?

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

After all, it is said that Satan can appear as an Angel of Light.

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!

NOW THAT SEEMS SO UNFAIR! Life is hard enough trying to figure it all out.

[Anonymous]

bridget_night wrote:

SamBee wrote:

After all, it is said that Satan can appear as an Angel of Light.

Quote:

!

NOW THAT SEEMS SO UNFAIR! Life is hard enough trying to figure it all out.

It’s unfair if the Satan (created by God) can truly masquerade as an Angel, in a literal sense. Especially in the early-days Mormon sense where the recommendation to solve the problem is based on ritual magic sources (not calling those bad like most people might knee-jerk react). The D&C talks about proving spirits with tests and all that, and presents a literal, magic-view of this being an event. How many people really need this? How many people really have Satan appear to them on a regular basis disguised as an angel? I won’t say it doesn’t ever happen, but I would guess so few that it might as well be none. There’s a more useful interpretation or understanding of this:

It makes more sense to me, not saying this is right but it makes more sense, if this is a metaphorical concept. It could be seen as symbolic of our “mistake” as humans sometimes naming something that is truly wicked as an “Angel of light.” In other words, sometimes we call bad things good. Satan (temptation, the lower unenlightened self) can appear to us (be a thought in our soul) that says “this evil produces a good, so it is OK to act on your desire.”

Hitler probably thought he was doing “good” when he acted on his desire to reshape the world, fixing all the problems he saw. The trains ran on time right? 😯 He was listening to “Satan,” a false angel of light that appeared to him in his soul.

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

…I did raise some of these concerns with my bishop recently, and he gave me some wise words, saying, “Well, I’m the bishop here, and I’ll tell you that the church is true, but if you go down to the church along the road, the minister will tell you the opposite.”

So some of it does feel right to me…but what if no 2 is the case? I’d hate to go to Hell (or wherever) because of my sincere feelings about something I believe to be at least partly true. …it would be terrible if all the positive things that latter day saints do went out of the window because of some central doctrine being false.

SamBee wrote:

…if I am getting into some kind of false church, with a false prophet, is it possible that I could be deceived. After all, it is said that Satan can appear as an Angel of Light.

I think evil is very much a seducer. Hardly anyone believes themselves to be evil, but they are drawn into it. Now I’m not saying that Mormons are evil, but that they might be being misled into something which is not good.

As far as I’m concerned, the main thing churches are good for is to be a glorified social club and their actual doctrines or historical development is mostly a secondary concern. Personally, I don’t believe that there is any such thing as a 100% true or divinely preferred church because they are all basically man-made institutions that will inevitably mix many purely human ideas and opinions with whatever divine inspiration and revelation they possibly understand correctly.

I was surprised to see several ex-Mormons on some Catholic blog now claiming that the Catholic Church is the one “true Church” given some of their questionable doctrines and traditions not to mention the Inquisition, selling of indulgences, etc. I guess if you start out with the expectation that there should be one “true Church” and then determine that the LDS Church isn’t it then the tendency is to wonder well which one is it then? Personally I think this mythical one “true Church” is nowhere to be found. Actually, the Unitarian Universalists’ doctrines (or lack thereof) are closer to my own personal beliefs than Mormonism or any other organized religion that I know of but I would probably never attend their services simply because I don’t know anyone there and I still identify with other Mormons even if I don’t agree with all of their beliefs anymore.

The problem I have with simply assuming that Joseph Smith was a false prophet is that I’m not convinced that there has ever been a completely trustworthy prophet in terms of only speaking the word of God separate from any personal opinions and not making any significant mistakes. The main difference is that we have more independent information and rumors about Joseph Smith because his life was more recent than widely accepted prophets like Moses and Isaiah and even Moses is hard to defend in some cases if we believe he really said everything he is given credit for (Numbers 31:14-18). This is why I don’t put much stock in your 2nd option because there are plenty of legitimate reasons to doubt the other alternatives as well and I have a hard time believing that God would hold this against people if they had good intentions and did the best they could under the circumstances.

[Anonymous]

I’m going to come back to this thread, because there’s a lot to digest, and I will reply to some of the other points…

The Church of Rome definitely has some parallels. How can such ugliness and beauty co-exist in an organization? It has given us some of the greatest art, architecture and music the western world has ever known, but has been responsible for war, torture, genocide etc. Mountain Meadows and the priesthood ban are nothing on some of the dirt in the Catholic church!

[Anonymous]

I’ve heard it say that the Angel Moroni was some kind of devil (worse than if he had just been made up than Joseph Smith), which still doesn’t account for the fact that a lot of the stuff in the Book of Mormon isn’t actually that outrageous by mainstream Christian doctrinal standards (other than the Christianity in America stuff)

The worrying scripture along these lines is

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“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.” —1 Timothy 4:1

– so who follows the doctrines of Devils, and who’s following the more unusual doctrines of God?

Hitler did have a deluded notion that he was doing something to improve the world. However, there is also some evidence that he may have been possessed or stalked by an evil spirit especially when speaking in public. There are accounts of him complaining about something in the corner of the room… (It was Mussolini who was supposed to have made the trains run on time – Italian infrastructure is a bit, well Latin) Hitler got mixed up in nasty aspects of the occult, which might explain some of it.

It may be unfair that the Devil can masquerade as an Angel of Light, but don’t humans do much the same thing all the time?

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I also have pondered the dilemma of “what if the church hierarchy leads the people in the “wrong” direction or to do evil?” Well, IMO, that has not happened, at least not in the last 30 years (glad I didn’t’ live in the 1800s!), and if that changes, then I will leave. I guess it goes back to the recent thread that asked the question if “would you follow the prophet no matter what?” No. I don’t and I won’t.

Looking back on history there was a worrying phase under Pres Benson in which a McCarthyist current seems to have entered in, which I believe could have turned very nasty if it had persisted, and would be anti-democratic.

I think if the church started backing dubious politics of whatever nature, then alarm bells would be ringing. One of the major criticisms of the church just now is that it is too orientated towards being a business.

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SamBee, I apologize for forgetting you are a prospective member, not a current one. My bad.

Hi Tom, I’m a convert who spent a number of years inactive, and didn’t believe in it really, but I felt called back recently. I’m trying to see things in a different light. Not being BIC means that I have childhood memories of going to other churches.

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1) what about the truths and helps that aren’t really available within the church, and what about the false notions that are there? Unless you personally transcend the church, staying in it may very well not be safe or ultimately helpful. What if you need prayer and fasting in the ancient sense, not the modern LDS sense? What if you need to avoid making promises and taking on debts, because your home and car loans are driving you crazy? What if you need to give up on the prosperity gospel and find the kingdom of heaven here and now?

These are all interesting, and very real questions. You’re right, I have to try and transcend the “churchianity”* aspects of the COJCLDS. I do take some spiritual inspiration from other places, and don’t like the more rigid and homogenized side of the church – it hides some of their genuinely unique ideas.

I have actually thought of going on a retreat in the wilderness with a tent somewhere. I know some places where this might be possible. I have done Buddhist retreats for the meditation (not for the puja and ritual side, I’ve never been into that), but I want to do stuff that enlarges me, rather than sending me to damnation.

* Churchianity -> http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1183&p=14975&hilit=churchianity#p14975

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2) why worry about having a church at all? Might the same reasoning lead you to choose None Of The Above, relying on the mercy of God? I think the decision has to be about more than fear and uncertainty. It would be best if it had something to do with love and adventure.

Because it can get incredibly lonely without one, and I think spirituality needs a social aspect, something critics of organized religion sometimes don’t appreciate. I need to hear how other people get on, although admittedly in the LDS, people are sometimes a bit guarded in saying negative stuff.

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As far as I’m concerned, the main thing churches are good for is to be a glorified social club and their actual doctrines or historical development is mostly a secondary concern. Personally, I don’t believe that there is any such thing as a 100% true or divinely preferred church because they are all basically man-made institutions that will inevitably mix many purely human ideas and opinions with whatever divine inspiration and revelation they possibly understand correctly.

The social aspect is important, but there are other ways to get it. I couldn’t really get the same thing out of the Lions clubs, Rotary etc… maybe the Masons.

[Anonymous]

This is a question DH and I pondered off and on as TMB’s. We felt so positive about the church that even if it wasn’t true we thought it was the best thing out there. Now I’m not so sure. I have come to a personal conclusion, from the information I have gathered so far(and that could change with additional info), that the Corporation of the President (legal name of the church) does not do things in a christian-like manner but puts it’s own business interests first. I believe that the people in the church trying to live by the wholesome principles it teaches is what is true. I believe that Christianity is man-made but institutions/churches encourage people to live good lives and that could be considered “truth”. I believe that the LDS church tries very hard at maintaining good values and principles that encourage people to live good lives. I also think that the church has many ways of doing things that can also be very damaging to individuals. I do not agree with the manipulation or control it uses to meet it’s objectives. I think that as long as people are ignorant to what is “going on behind the scenes” or to the foundation that this church is built on that the issues I have with the church would not be relevant to them. Right now I’ve gone past the question “what if the church ISN’T true?” I’ve already dealt with that one. The question I’m dealing with right now is whether or not I can continue in clear conscious supporting the church and raising my kids in it now that I see it with the mask off.

It is a very good question to ask but I think it has many parts to it. Here are some additional questions I had never thought of asking when I pondered the question “what if the Church ISN’T true”, that may be worth considering. Try asking what if JS made this all up? What if JS and other prophets did things that would be offensive to you? What if the money I’m donating is being used in ways that I would not be comfortable with? What if our situation for the after-life was never “revealed” to anyone and it was all just opinions of others? If the answers to these questions are not what you would prefer can you still see truth in the church?

Footing

[Anonymous]

Wow, there are some great comments in this thread.

I remember talking with my stake president several years ago. He made said something about how wonderful it was to bring up your family within the safe confines of the church. My comment back was that, even if I should find out someday that the church wasn’t true, I still think it’s a fantastic lifestyle and the best way I could think of to raise a family. I was unprepared for his response, because the casual conversation quickly took a more serious turn when he challenged my comment as being “dangerous thinking” and borderline apostate. I had to do some quick backtracking and reassure him that I had a valid testimony.

One thing I find so refreshing in this forum is that there is an acceptance of ideas outside the mainstream that is non-existent within the church.

Today I would certainly have a different response, and I still most definitely agree with my earlier thought that I’m better off within the church than outside of it – in spite of the questions and doubts I have.

[Anonymous]

findingmyownfooting wrote:

The question I’m dealing with right now is whether or not I can continue in clear conscious supporting the church and raising my kids in it now that I see it with the mask off.

That’s really the crux of it, isn’t it? And I think the answer is different for each person. I’ve already concluded that most of the foundational claims you talked about are like you said. But what do we do about it today?

My answer to the OP question is that I don’t think it IS true — as far as most TBMs consider the question to mean. I’m quite comfortable with the Criddle/Broadhurst et al analysis of where the BoM came from, and I have no question that it is not necessary for me to “do” all the things/ordinances for me to get to the CK in the next life…

BUT, I don’t think there is another “church” that has anything better either!

I try to look at the big picture. Religion and all the traditions have had a significant place in the history of humanity. It has shaped our purpose of life — as well as everything we say and do. Many religions have extreme political and financial power today, Mormonism notwithstanding. Do we just shut them down when we conclude that they are “false?” Or do we change the paradigm?

I like the latter. Take what’s good and “true,” increase/improve the service to humanity and support systems, and minimize the exclusivity and fear-based teachings. I see the evolution taking place…right here, and other forums. It’s a grass roots transition, and is quite positive IMO. I don’t see the change happening overnight…it will take decades. But the way I look at it, love always prevails, and God uses all avenues to accomplish his plan.

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

BUT, I don’t think there is another “church” that has anything better either!

I think answering the question “what if the Church ISN’T true? and coming up with the conclusion that I’m just about as sure that it is not as I had been before that it was, has made me re-think the statement you’ve made Rix. DH and I have been taking our children to other Christian denominations occasionally. We always explain that the reasons are for them to learn how others worship so that they can gain a better respect for others beliefs. We follow-up with a discussion as well. Tonight we even has a FHE lesson talking about the things that Christian religions agree about the teachings of Jesus like, love, service and unselfishness. It has been a wonderful experience for us all. I don’t think you can really know if the LDS church is better with out really knowing what the others offer. I’m still trying to figure that out for myself. There is a church walking distance from us and we visited it once. We all walked as a family there and back and then since it was only one our we took the kids to the local arboretum and had a picnic lunch. It was one of the best Sunday we’ve ever had. At this church the children’s program is absolutely amazing and very organized. The kids were actually able to tell us what they learned way better then they do at our own church. They only have the kids go with the grown-ups once a month. As the kids get older they have a program during Sunday school a little more structured to prepare them to eventually join the adults. So it is not stressful on the kids or the adults. The church has an amazing social program. Before doing the sacrament (which is once a month) the Pastor explains that all are welcome to partake whether or not they are a member. Your desire to accept Christ is more important than how you live rules. Now I don’t know if this church would be better but what I’m saying is that before I started visiting other churches (which we don’t do more than once a month BTW) I don’t think I really knew if the LDS church really was the best even though I assumed it probably was. Answering the question What if the Church ISN’T true? has just opened up new possibilities for me.

[Anonymous]

findingmyownfooting wrote:

This is a question DH and I pondered off and on as TMB’s. We felt so positive about the church that even if it wasn’t true we thought it was the best thing out there. Now I’m not so sure. I have come to a personal conclusion, from the information I have gathered so far…that the Corporation of the President (legal name of the church) does not do things in a christian-like manner but puts it’s own business interests first…I believe that the LDS church tries very hard at maintaining good values and principles that encourage people to live good lives. I also think that the church has many ways of doing things that can also be very damaging to individuals. I do not agree with the manipulation or control it uses to meet it’s objectives. I think that as long as people are ignorant to what is “going on behind the scenes” or to the foundation that this church is built on that the issues I have with the church would not be relevant to them…The question I’m dealing with right now is whether or not I can continue in clear conscious supporting the church…what if JS made this all up? What if JS and other prophets did things that would be offensive to you?…can you still see truth in the church?

Personally, I don’t agree at all with the idea many anti-Mormons have that supporting the LDS Church is completely wrong mostly because they are convinced that Joseph Smith lied and the LDS Church is not what it claims to be so then they think it should just go away ASAP. Even if Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and others actually did lie in a shameless self-serving way all it really means is that the LDS Church is simply another imperfect human organization just like every other church out there. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the LDS Church is a particularly malicious or abusive organization at this point.

I could see this idea having some merit if they were still actively teaching ideas like polygamy and racial discrimination as God-given commandments but a lot of these things that drive anti-Mormons absolutely berserk are mostly water under the bridge by now. Even the strict rules like Tithing and the WoW are not really compulsory to the point that they will excommunicate you if you just don’t listen to them in cases like this. At worst, people will typically only hurt themselves if they end up sacrificing too much for the sake of the Church. Sure the doctrine of eternal families complicates things somewhat by adding an extra level of peer-pressure but I really don’t think most Church leaders meant any harm by any of this it’s just the way the Church has evolved and it could just as easily change for the better over time as well.

One reason I don’t hate the LDS Church is because I think most of these Church leaders actually have good intentions for the most part and are simply loyal TBMs basically trying to defend and promote a long-held tradition they have embraced their entire lives. For example, I think the whitewashed history policy is mostly promoted out of concern for many members they are basically trying to protect as if their eternal salvation depends on it. Even apologists who are actually aware of many problems with the Church continue to defend it mostly because they really want it to be true more than anything. When I see how happy many TBMs are with such an optimistic attitude while taking hardships in stride I would hate to be the one to try to burst their bubble for no good reason. In fact, I would almost like to go back to this kind of unquestioning belief myself if I could so I don’t really blame them for believing this way if it still works for them.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

I could see this idea having some merit if they were still actively teaching ideas like polygamy and racial discrimination as God-given commandments but a lot of these things that drive anti-Mormons absolutely berserk are mostly water under the bridge by now.

I agree…mostly. IMO, there are still some harmful discriminatory teachings that need changing. Top of the list is the LGBT bias. I’m right here in the heart of Utah, and I could give you a list of hundreds of dead gays/lesbians that have taken their own lives from the unbearable depression they had after growing up in families that taught them how broken they were being gay. I see this as the next necessary change to bring the church in alignment with love, rather than fear.

I will say it is happening, but not fast enough to save the life of one a day (estimates are) that choose to end it rather than fight any more.

😥

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

I could see this idea having some merit if they were still actively teaching ideas like polygamy and racial discrimination as God-given commandments but a lot of these things that drive anti-Mormons absolutely berserk are mostly water under the bridge by now.

I agree…mostly. IMO, there are still some harmful discriminatory teachings that need changing. Top of the list is the LGBT bias. I’m right here in the heart of Utah, and I could give you a list of hundreds of dead gays/lesbians that have taken their own lives from the unbearable depression they had after growing up in families that taught them how broken they were being gay. I see this as the next necessary change to bring the church in alignment with love, rather than fear…I will say it is happening, but not fast enough to save the life of one a day (estimates are) that choose to end it rather than fight any more.

I forgot about this when I wrote that and I agree that they really need to stop with all the bigotry against gays but unfortunately the LDS Church is not really alone in this respect because many traditional Christians still share the same views as well. I would just chalk this off mostly as ignorance as well as some of the Apostle Paul’s outdated opinions being given more respect than they really deserve at this point. Sometimes people are really stubborn about letting go of these kinds of dogmatic ideas.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

findingmyownfooting wrote:

The question I’m dealing with right now is whether or not I can continue in clear conscious supporting the church…what if JS made this all up? What if JS and other prophets did things that would be offensive to you?…can you still see truth in the church?

Even apologists who are actually aware of many problems with the Church continue to defend it mostly because they really want it to be true more than anything. When I see how happy many TBMs are with such an optimistic attitude while taking hardships in stride I would hate to be the one to try to burst their bubble for no good reason. In fact, I would almost like to go back to this kind of unquestioning belief myself if I could so I don’t really blame them for believing this way if it still works for them.

These are really interesting thoughts.

Similar to DA’s comments, I feel that I could answer FMOF questions with a YES, I could still believe it is true for me, even if past prophets made mistakes…even major mistakes…only IF…

– I felt spiritual witnesses this was God’s will for me

– The fruits of it were good for me and my family

– Current leaders were making improvements that apply to me and my time, regardless of the past and those situations

Those things would make me WANT to believe it and live it, and would allow me to put some meaning on it so the past mistakes are overshadowed by the hope in the future provided to me by living it with faith. That is why faith is the first principle of the gospel.

Like DA points out, if we want to believe it is true (that is to say if the past mistakes weren’t so seriously flawed that I can’t make myself want to believe in it), and it can really make me happy, then why reject it? It can be true, despite not being perfect.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Rix wrote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

I could see this idea having some merit if they were still actively teaching ideas like polygamy and racial discrimination as God-given commandments but a lot of these things that drive anti-Mormons absolutely berserk are mostly water under the bridge by now.

I agree…mostly. IMO, there are still some harmful discriminatory teachings that need changing. Top of the list is the LGBT bias. I’m right here in the heart of Utah, and I could give you a list of hundreds of dead gays/lesbians that have taken their own lives from the unbearable depression they had after growing up in families that taught them how broken they were being gay. I see this as the next necessary change to bring the church in alignment with love, rather than fear…I will say it is happening, but not fast enough to save the life of one a day (estimates are) that choose to end it rather than fight any more.

I forgot about this when I wrote that and I agree that they really need to stop with all the bigotry against gays but unfortunately the LDS Church is not really alone in this respect because many traditional Christians still share the same views as well. I would just chalk this off mostly as ignorance as well as some of the Apostle Paul’s outdated opinions being given more respect than they really deserve at this point. Sometimes people are really stubborn about letting go of these kinds of dogmatic ideas.

Exactly! Sometimes I may come across as targeting the LDS church for their outdated biases, but I see much more of a problem in other churches…hopefully they will all evolve to be more love-based!

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

Sometimes I may come across as targeting the LDS church for their outdated biases, but I see much more of a problem in other churches…hopefully they will all evolve to be more love-based!

I think it is interesting to see this going on right now, where we wonder what the “truth” is about homosexuality. It seems to me that all we know is that the church has declared practicing that lifestyle as a sin along with fornication and adultery. Why it is a sin is not really understood, or why some people struggle with it is not really understood.

This makes me think how similar that is to the Blacks and the Priesthood, or even Polygamy. Until the church leaders have more truth revealed to them, they hold on to what they have declared in the past. As time goes on, some truths become more apparent and eventually they can accept change. Then people will look back on this time and wonder why the “only true and living church” didn’t know the truth from the beginning, which will bother many people.

However, it doesn’t seem like there is historical evidence that God works that way. Not all truth is given all at once, but line upon line. And when one issue comes and goes, another weed sprouts in the garden and will have to continue to be pruned endlessly.

[Author]

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