- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Realizing it’s too late for all of us who are already endowed because we’re only endowed for ourselves once, this question came to mind in light of a couple other running threads. What if, in any of the instances where we bow our heads and say yes in the temple, we don’t do so? I’m not saying we should make a spectacle of ourselves, and I full well understand that we’re each very much overwhelmed that first time through. My point is who would even notice or know besides oneself and perhaps God if you believe that? So what if we taught our daughters (and sons) that when the “hearken” time comes (or any other “covenant” she or he might not totally buy into) they just don’t bow their heads and say yes? (Maybe they bow their heads but don’t say yes or whatever.) Would it really matter? Would it bring us peace of mind? Would anyone notice?
I’m sort of just thinking out loud, it’s also too late for half to three-quarters of my children.
I don’t think anyone would notice. In fact the last time I went through the temple I made a conscious effort to listen to who around me said “yes” to the various covenants. I’m pretty sure the guy to my left, and who is the Scoutmaster in my ward, didn’t say yes to many of the covenants. But then again it’s not for him, he was only a proxy. He also slept through half of the endowment… Personally, I don’t feel too constrained about the covenants I made for myself in the temple back when I was 19. I was more or less under duress and I had no idea what any of it meant and I had no idea beforehand what covenants I would be making. However, I don’t know where that leaves my kids because I intend to tell them everything that happens in the temple before they go through.
I think going through for myself if I decided to not say yes to various covenants I would wonder if the entire endowment was null and void for me. It seems like not saying “yes” is the same as saying “no” and if you believe the endowment is from God, then you’re sort of saying you don’t recognize the validity of His ordinance.
I’ve always looked at the Endowment as a dress rehearsal. The first time we go through the temple, there is no way that we fully understand what we are going through. Now X years later, it is still a mystery. There is no way that we can say,
Quote:now I fully understand.
When I went through with my daughter a few months ago (and yes her dad and I did prep her), I stood but didn’t say anything. It’s someone else’s anyway – according to legendary stories they are right there waiting, so I left the door open for Sister Once Upon a Time. I believe it matters if the person not doing it thinks it matters. For example, someone with an internal conflict that is specifically not saying it, and thinking about how they will not covenant and disagrees with it, is showing God where their heart is on that matter. They may even reflect on it afterwards, discuss with others the issue, or wrestle with God privately in prayer as they work through their issue…to that person it matters, and it means something.
Whereas, the person who hears it, doesn’t think much of it, has their mind on other things, doesn’t believe God cares one way or another, and just let’s it go and doesn’t say anything….to that person it doesn’t matter. And the world keeps turning, the temple ceremony goes on, that person goes on with their life without another thought about it…and so it doesn’t matter.
I don’t say “yes” to hearkening; it’s the only way I can see my way clear to being there. Ann wrote:I don’t say “yes” to hearkening; it’s the only way I can see my way clear to being there.
I am sure understand that.
I already made the hearkening covenant for myself – I was twenty years old, madly in love, naive, and also a little self-righteous. I wish I could undo THAT covenant and keep the rest. But I also don’t feel comfortable making that covenant on behalf of other women, especially my own female ancestors. I just don’t go to the temple at all. But that is probably a cowardly way out – someone else will do their endowment instead, someone who has no issues with the sexism and will gladly bow her head and say ‘yes’ and consign my great-great-great-great-great-grandmother to an eternity of hearkening. If you think about it, dead women who are having their temple work done in 2017 are lucky. Dead women who had their temple work done in 1989 have to OBEY their husbands forever. When we do temple work for the dead the people on the other side of the veil are not obligated to accept the ordinance, they still have their agency. It also doesn’t have to be an all or nothing affair. You can bow your head and say yes to everything in the temple but that doesn’t mean the person on the other side of the veil is doing the same. Maybe they only said yes to the 3rd and 5th thing, who knows? I think that the people on the other side of the veil even have the opportunity to say yes when we do not.
Joni wrote:I wish I could undo THAT covenant and keep the rest.
Apparently covenants have to be renewed at regular intervals, hence the sacrament. The next time you renew your covenants, why not renew the ones that still speak to your soul and not renew the ones that don’t? Heck, tear off a little piece of the sacrament bread you take from the tray, let the crumb represent the things you don’t want to carry into the future, and toss the crumb out. From that moment on you are only renewing the covenants that resonate with you. Create your own symbols.
The last time I went to the temple there were a lot of things I didn’t say.
😳 In the past I was obsessive about the parts where you repeat words in your mind, making sure I got it down to perfection so I wouldn’t blow it for someone needing an ordinance. It created some anxiety. The last time I went… I didn’t say anything, not even the repeat in your mind stuff. I wanted to de-stress the temple experience and doing everything to the letter had become a distraction. So, sorry😥 to the dude I was doing an ordinance for. If I botched it for you I will personally escort you thorough the temple, arm in arm during the millennium. I’ll even make sure you get the quality temple robes that fit. You know the ones, the kind that have actual, factual pleats in them and where the dealy is even shaped like leaves.A few comments based on and in response to what I’m hearing here: – I don’t go to the temple much either, although I do hold a recommend. The temple does very little for me. I usually find peace there but I can find that peace elsewhere as well (without the 5 hour round trip and 2+ hours in the temple). I did not go at all in 2016.
-I don’t believe the temple endowment is essential for our salvation. It is not mentioned in the Bible or Book of Mormon, each of which contain the fullness of the gospel (which we are actually taught in the temple, sort of ironically). We could split hairs about salvation vs. exaltation, I’m not going there.
-Since I don’t believe the endowment is essential for me, I don’t believe it is essential for my dead ancestors either. I also don’t believe in baptism for the dead. It seems to me the main reason we go back and do temple work is to remember or have our minds refreshed about the whole thing because there’s no way after that one time with all the other stuff going on in one’s mind that any of us would remember that stuff. I border on the work for the dead thing all being made up.
-Since the “damage has been done” for me (I was also young, naive, and very gung ho at the time) it makes no difference now. I did talk to both my sons frankly about the endowment before they went through (I had to be careful, DW is a “don’t talk about anything outside the temple” person). I was not specific about all the covenants because I didn’t (and don’t) recall all of them. It did not occur to me at the time to tell them they could probably skip the “bow your head and say yes” thing. Since my daughter is unlikely to be endowed in the near future (she does not hold a TR and doesn’t desire to go) I have one more chance with a son.
-In relation to the point above, I’m not actually sure we are making covenants with God anyway. I suppose if we think we are, we might be. I do believe in the symbolism of such things and it’s all symbolic anyway IMO.
-To Nibbler’s point, I don’t believe the sacrament renews our covenants. I believe in the sacrament and that it is exactly what Jesus said it was when he implemented it – something we do in remembrance of Him. I think all the other stuff about the sacrament and it being a basis for our baptismal covenants (which I also don’t believe in) is made up.
Can you bow your head and say, “Yesterisk”? We are told to be agents unto ourselves in the Book of Mormon. I believe the endowment was made for man (too much for man and not as much for woman), not man and woman for the endowment. Thus, just like Jesus picking and eating food on the Sabbath, participate in whatever way makes sense for you. Nobody else will notice, and I believe God will understand.
Old Timer wrote:We are told to be agents unto ourselves in the Book of Mormon.
I believe the endowment was made for man (too much for man and not as much for woman), not man and woman for the endowment. Thus, just like Jesus picking and eating food on the Sabbath, participate in whatever way makes sense for you.
I agree and think the difference between the male and female temple experience has got to start getting some welcome attention.
Quote:Nobody else will notice, and I believe God will understand.
Nobody notices what I do (not say yes), but I’ve heard several anecdotes of women who don’t bow and don’t veil being escorted out. I’m not brave enough, yet, to go there, because I don’t want to detract or make a spectacle. I don’t know any of those women personally. Some people want to portray them as mentally unstable drama queens. Maybe some of them are. But I know myself, and how sympathetic I am to their actions and how close I am to doing it myself. i still find myself racking my brain for “why.” Why isn’t this changing.But that’s just the sisters-only part of the question in the OP, so I get that it’s not the whole discussion here.
Ann wrote:
Nobody notices what I do (not say yes), but I’ve heard several anecdotes of women who don’t bow and don’t veil being escorted out. I’m not brave enough, yet, to go there, because I don’t want to detract or make a spectacle. I don’t know any of those women personally. Some people want to portray them as mentally unstable drama queens. Maybe some of them are. But I know myself, and how sympathetic I am to their actions and how close I am to doing it myself. i still find myself racking my brain for “why.” Why isn’t this changing.But that’s just the sisters-only part of the question in the OP, so I get that it’s not the whole discussion here.
I am not aware nor have I heard of anything like that happening, and I’m certainly not advocating for anything more “radical” than simply not saying yes. I do agree that I don’t know why this hasn’t changed more than it has. Perhaps a few more of the dinosaurs in the Q15 need to die off?
To the opening question — I don’t think it matters unless some temple matron or patron comes overs and calls you out about it. It might have some personal significance, but I handle it by not going to the temple at all. That way I don’t have to bow my head and say yes, keep 2 hours of free time to myself, and don’t have to make every single move they prescribe in the ceremony perfectly. Why I used to subject myself to that is beyond me. I think it was after a few times I realized I simply did not enjoy the experience at all. I know it is good for many people — the ultimate quietude of the celestial room, and the symbolism, but for me, the clothing, the rote repetition, the scrutiny — it was not good for me. It peaked when I was a veil worker and had people correcting me left right and center….that was the last straw and I don’t think I have been back since.
I will remember even getting chastised when I was in the veil workers waiting room from one person when I mentioned something about getting a traffic ticket when we were chatting and waiting. I didn’t know any of the people there, and one guy piped up and called me up saying “don’t bring that up in the temple”. After being corrected for the way I put my foot, and the things I said at the veil, I’d about had enough.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.