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As you might know, I’m not much for prayer. I don’t believe prayers are answered, and although I do pray sometimes (not necessarily daily) I don’t generally ask for anything other than general sorts of things that probably happen anyway. I admit that I do often feel peace while praying, and I do appreciate that. I don’t ask for the peace, I don’t expect it, and I don’t always feel it. But sometimes I need more than peace, and I can find some peace on my own without prayer. What do you do when you need or desire more than peace? Can we really commune with God and I’m just missing something? Or is peace all there is?
(Yes, I am struggling with some things right now and I really want the God I used to think was real.)
Lately the thing that is doing it for me is even a few minutes of solitary time out in nature. I used to like it. Now I just soak it in when I have a chance. There have been key points in my life when I needed more than peace — I needed intervention. I needed God to swoop in and change my life in a way that I could not change it. I was powerless to change the things that needed changing. And those things that needed changing were making me suffer. And if he couldn’t step in to help me, I would have had to make dramatic changes that would hurt other people in the process. In those two situations, I really needed God to step in and help me. In both situations, they resolved. One seemed miraculous at the time, the other seemed less miraculous but timely.
Since then, over the last 30 years I have not asked for much from God. The things I asked for never came to pass, and they were important. His church, a logical source of miracles proved to cause me more distress than peace, so I have had to distance myself from it.
I am not even sure if I can rely on God for inner peace. I have to provide that myself. I find it challenging and feel tempted to use my body to bring peace — through drinking alcohol or taking pain killers. So far I haven’t given into it, but it seems to be on my mind a lot when I feel upset.
So, I don’t think I rely on God for much anymore. I have felt let down too many times, and feel like I am “sucking air through a straw” when I pray for things I need. Instead, I work really hard and hope that it will make my life better, and so far, it has.
LookingHard wrote:Lately the thing that is doing it for me is even a few minutes of solitary time out in nature. I used to like it. Now I just soak it in when I have a chance.
This ^^^^^^^
Answers to prayers come in so many ways. I generally have faith that connecting with God is more than inner peace. It is what we need. It sometimes takes years and years to see the outcome of it…which for me meant years of not having peace. In some ways, asking and pleading for things is one way to work through the things inside of you. You might be surprised what you feel when you pour out your soul to God for interventions, asking in real faith.
I do think it can be more than peace. It depends on what your heart desires, and what faith you have, and what you do to align your soul to the energy in the universe.
I have not given up hope that there can be interventions, I just manage my expectations to what I think they may be and what I need and the time horizon for it.
Something tells me you have some faith and want to believe you can commune with God, you just are hesitant to let yourself believe it, to protect yourself from disappointment.
This is going to sound overly dramatic but it’s how I feel… I had a period lasting several years where the only thing I wanted out of life was peace but life had other plans. It’s one thing when you bring conflict into your life through your actions, it’s another thing entirely when conflict shows up at your door and dogs your every step. In such times I felt like life couldn’t possibly get any worse just to be proven time and time again that it could. I did warn you that this would be overly dramatic.
All I wanted out of life was peace, that’s it, I didn’t feel it was too much to ask, and for me that meant an end to the conflicts. After a long time I realized that the conflict was here to stay. I had to find a way to feel at peace
despitethe conflicts. I’m still working on that. Right now my bus stops at peace, anything out beyond that will be gravy. I don’t expect a peaceful life; I work on developing a peaceful me. I admit, however, that I’m not sure how much of that is conscious choice (although I do choose it consciously) and how much is biological nature. My wife appreciates that approach, but it bugs her sometimes – like now when there is a degree of turmoil in our lives. She can’t be at peace with injustice (not focused on God but on an individual), and it bugs her that I can – again, even though she appreciates it and wouldn’t want both of us to be as upset as she is.
So, my “beyond peace” is seeing a meaning in my life beyond the difficulties – and faith that, looking back, I will understand better than I do right now. Hindsight emphasizing things here and there has worked thus far.
I am a purpose person. If I can find a purpose in turmoil, struggle, even fear then I can work with it and strangely enough that brings a form of peace. If I can’t find a purpose then peace doesn’t happen. I enjoy bliss – bliss to me is the non-struggle time and as I mature I try to be immensely grateful and praising of the bliss moments. I don’t pray like I used to. I actually find I talk to The Divine more, I ramble on forever, but I have learned to say, “Your not the magic wand God” as I search for purpose in my struggle. And yes I do rage at The Divine, too, it saves me hurting some other lowly human.
I appreciate the responses so far, thank you. @LH (and FS), as I said I can find peace on my own. Solitude, especially outside (and the farther from other humans the better), does it for me as well. I can also find peace by listening to music (including but not limited to some hymns) and reading (including but not limited to scripture). And sometimes peace just comes when I’m not otherwise expecting it. In my faith transition, this feeling of peace is what I have mostly come to associate with the Spirit, as opposed to any other feelings/emotions.
@SD, thanks for sharing. Your two earlier experiences are interesting. Your introduction to that thought (when you needed intervention) describes where I’m at – and have been for several years. I cannot say I have ever had a situation where I felt when I needed intervention the issues resolved in any miraculous or even mildly astonishing way. I have in fact felt the opposite – that they usually don’t resolve favorably. That’s not to say that I have never felt “blessed,” but I have not felt blessed for a long time and I generally view things where people believe they’re blessed and just plain old luck.
@Heber, that’s what I’m asking. I think that connecting with God must be more than just peace as well. If peace is relatively easy to find on my own, I really don’t need that from God. Again, that’s not to say I don’t appreciate it – but I desire more than that. I don’t buy the whole faith thing, it has never worked for me no matter how much I have pleaded, poured out my heart, fasted, etc. I do believe there is a God, and I used to believe God heard and answered prayers despite that I never really felt He answered any of mine – but I no longer believe that. I do want to believe it is possible to commune with God, but I see no evidence that such is actually possible. Hence, my deist view of God.
@Ray, I, too, have worked at cultivating peace. I think a big part of my faith transition has been understanding that peace comes from within and that I can still find peace despite external turmoil. I don’t expect a peaceful life, nor do I expect that we won’t face trials – sometimes severe trials – in our lives even if we “live right” and “keep the commandments” and pay full tithing, etc.
@Mom, I can relate to your last sentence more than you will ever know (I usually refer to that as the Dark Side). Sometimes the Dark Side is stronger than others, and quite frankly now is not a time when it seems particularly strong. But I still need more than peace.
I guess what I’m getting out of all of you (except perhaps Heber) is that peace really is all there is. While I also don’t expect Mormon Magic or the God of the Lost Car Keys anymore, I was just hoping that sometimes there was more, that sometimes God does more than having sent his Son, that sometimes He is more than a comforter – and I struggle with why that is and why some people suffer more than others while some are “blessed” more than others.
I think there can be more than peace. Of course, peace can mean lots of things for lots of people, depending on how you are looking at it. But if you are saying DarkJedi wrote:I admit that I do often feel peace while praying, and I do appreciate that. I don’t ask for the peace, I don’t expect it, and I don’t always feel it. But sometimes I need more than peace, and I can find some peace on my own without prayer.
…it seems that kind of peace you’ve experienced can be figured out in life with or without prayer, reducing a need for prayer if that is all it comes to. Is that what you are saying?
If so, that’s fine. That seems like a reasonable conclusion to get to in life. And maybe you praying less because you’ve figured things out on your own helps God help other people who need it more, or bugs him less when He knows you can figure it out…who knows how it works.
I really do like the idea that I can figure out peace in my life without having to have god feed me everything with a silver spoon. I feel better about myself to think “I pray as if all depends on God, but stand and go do as if everything depends on me.” That lesson has helped me most. It still shows I can find faith and prayer useful, but not with unrealistic expectations of how my world works around me.
Peace…sure, its great…I’ll take it or leave it…I have some other really important things to figure out in life and it isn’t all just OK whether I have peace or not. In other words…I want more than peace, which is what you are saying.
I think the scriptures give us many things to consider in regard to what we receive from a prayer full of faith, nothing wavering. Unless you just don’t have any faith in anything else and don’t care to waste time knocking or seeking, or you don’t think it is worth it…like maybe there is kinda something, but not anything of interest to you by praying and wanting divine intervention. If you don’t have a desire to ask God to connect with you, and you don’t believe it can happen, I don’t see a purpose in trying to force yourself to do it and look for signs so you can believe it. In other words, it isn’t NECESSARY to believe in God or that he will intervene. You can find your own peace or find other ways that work for you. Billions do.
But there are also billions that find it very helpful in shaping their character, and feel better as a person because of praying for divine connections…whether they have peace or are working towards it. It is just a tool that helps us shape our spiritual in-tuneness. It is a way to hope for the mystical in life that is hard to explain, but is believed to be there. It can be a way to spiritually create things in your mind, so you have a blueprint to go build it in the physical world. Many believe those spiritual blueprints get enhanced by divine intervention. That is faith. There is no way to prove it. But you can try Alma type experiments and find what grows for you, what fruit you like, and what doesn’t grow or work within you. It’s very personally tied to your faith and your journey.
You have to decide what works best for you. But I would argue with anyone that just makes a blanket statement that there is nothing but inner peace available through trying to connect to the divine in our lives.
Perhaps for discussion, we can use Elder Holland’s popular statement on answers to prayers, and you can respond with how you feel about this story (I’m sure you know it well…it’s simplistic and flawed…but also potentially spiritual in it’s application of the allegory):
Quote:Returning from an exploring trip on backcountry roads, he and his father came to an unexpected fork and could not remember which road to take. It was late in the day, and they knew darkness would be enveloping them in unfamiliar territory. Seizing a teaching moment, Jeffrey Holland asked his son to pray for direction. Afterward, he asked his son what he felt, and Matt replied that he felt strongly they should go to the left. Replying that he had felt the same way, his father turned the truck to the left. Ten minutes later, they came to a dead end and returned to take the other route.
Matt thought for a time and then asked his father why they would get that kind of answer to a prayer. His father replied that with the sun going down, that was undoubtedly the quickest way for the Lord to give them information—in this case, which one was the wrong road. Now, though the other road might not be familiar and could be difficult in places, they could proceed confidently, knowing it was the right one, even in the dark.
So…do you think prayer helped? Did it bring peace, even if it made them have to turnaround…was it better for them to know which road was right?
Or was that a waste of time to pray…because…you can figure that out either way. No spiritual prompting or lesson learned was any better by praying as opposed to randomly picking a road and going with it?
What do you believe about that story? Does it relate to your own questions or not really applying to what you are thinking about in your life? Do you want something more from prayer, but your brain is telling you you’ll never get it?
I’ve got my opinions, but would rather hear others’. Forgive the preachiness…I’m trying to keep it real and grounded. But would like the discussion if it is helpful to you. I have my doubts and my lack of faith in a lot of things about the church and God…but can still return to church and these Elder Holland-type stories I hear in church by TBMs and I can find real worth in these gospel principles…beyond just fluff and words. It is how I live my life merging the two. It is part of my faith, which wavers, but I’m working on it.
(sorry…lots of questions there…just hoping a discussion may help. You don’t have to reply directly if you don’t want.)
Heber13 wrote:Quote:Returning from an exploring trip on backcountry roads, he and his father came to an unexpected fork and could not remember which road to take. It was late in the day, and they knew darkness would be enveloping them in unfamiliar territory. Seizing a teaching moment, Jeffrey Holland asked his son to pray for direction. Afterward, he asked his son what he felt, and Matt replied that he felt strongly they should go to the left. Replying that he had felt the same way, his father turned the truck to the left. Ten minutes later, they came to a dead end and returned to take the other route.
Matt thought for a time and then asked his father why they would get that kind of answer to a prayer. His father replied that with the sun going down, that was undoubtedly the quickest way for the Lord to give them information—in this case, which one was the wrong road. Now, though the other road might not be familiar and could be difficult in places, they could proceed confidently, knowing it was the right one, even in the dark.
Call me cynical, but if I were to continue the story
Quote:Matt was silent for a minute and then he turned to his dad and asked, “Did I just see a case of cognitive bias in action?” The father replied in a serious deep tone, “Yes son. And you need to learn that lesson most of all then all of life will make sense.”
I guess this is just more proof that I am NOT out of Folwer’s stage 4 yet! I still have too many triggers.Heber13 wrote:I think there can be more than peace. Of course, peace can mean lots of things for lots of people, depending on how you are looking at it. But if you are saying
DarkJedi wrote:I admit that I do often feel peace while praying, and I do appreciate that. I don’t ask for the peace, I don’t expect it, and I don’t always feel it. But sometimes I need more than peace, and I can find some peace on my own without prayer.
…it seems that kind of peace you’ve experienced can be figured out in life with or without prayer, reducing a need for prayer if that is all it comes to. Is that what you are saying?
If so, that’s fine. That seems like a reasonable conclusion to get to in life. And maybe you praying less because you’ve figured things out on your own helps God help other people who need it more, or bugs him less when He knows you can figure it out…who knows how it works.
I really do like the idea that I can figure out peace in my life without having to have god feed me everything with a silver spoon. I feel better about myself to think “I pray as if all depends on God, but stand and go do as if everything depends on me.” That lesson has helped me most. It still shows I can find faith and prayer useful, but not with unrealistic expectations of how my world works around me.
Peace…sure, its great…I’ll take it or leave it…I have some other really important things to figure out in life and it isn’t all just OK whether I have peace or not. In other words…I want more than peace, which is what you are saying.
Yes, that is pretty much what I’m saying. I can find peace on my own and while I am not unappreciative of peace I feel during prayer it’s not what I’m after – and it’s not an answer. Me: God, I’m about to get nailed by this log truck and things aren’t looking so good for a happy and healthy ending. God: Don’t worry about it. Me: But I am worried, that’s why I’m here. God: Don’t worry, be happy. Me: (post crush) God, here I am in the ICU, I need your help to get better. God: Don’t worry. Me: But the doctor says I’ll never walk again and will need 24 hour care the rest of my life. I know you could heal me, I have seen such miracles. God: Don’t worry.
Quote:I think the scriptures give us many things to consider in regard to what we receive from a prayer full of faith, nothing wavering. Unless you just don’t have any faith in anything else and don’t care to waste time knocking or seeking, or you don’t think it is worth it…like maybe there is kinda something, but not anything of interest to you by praying and wanting divine intervention. If you don’t have a desire to ask God to connect with you, and you don’t believe it can happen, I don’t see a purpose in trying to force yourself to do it and look for signs so you can believe it. In other words, it isn’t NECESSARY to believe in God or that he will intervene. You can find your own peace or find other ways that work for you. Billions do.
But there are also billions that find it very helpful in shaping their character, and feel better as a person because of praying for divine connections…whether they have peace or are working towards it. It is just a tool that helps us shape our spiritual in-tuneness. It is a way to hope for the mystical in life that is hard to explain, but is believed to be there. It can be a way to spiritually create things in your mind, so you have a blueprint to go build it in the physical world. Many believe those spiritual blueprints get enhanced by divine intervention. That is faith. There is no way to prove it. But you can try Alma type experiments and find what grows for you, what fruit you like, and what doesn’t grow or work within you. It’s very personally tied to your faith and your journey.
No doubt others have had experiences with prayer and wouldn’t think of going a day without it. I have not had such experiences – even when I thought I had nearly enough faith to move a mountain. In case you haven’t surmised, it was part of my faith crisis. While I did once believe that prayers were heard and answered, when it was my turn to look back on the beach there was only ever one set of footprints – mine. If indeed the heavens were once open to me as I once believed, I have long felt them to be closed.
Quote:You have to decide what works best for you. But I would argue with anyone that just makes a blanket statement that there is nothing but inner peace available through trying to connect to the divine in our lives.
Perhaps for discussion, we can use Elder Holland’s popular statement on answers to prayers, and you can respond with how you feel about this story (I’m sure you know it well…it’s simplistic and flawed…but also potentially spiritual in it’s application of the allegory):
Quote:Returning from an exploring trip on backcountry roads, he and his father came to an unexpected fork and could not remember which road to take. It was late in the day, and they knew darkness would be enveloping them in unfamiliar territory. Seizing a teaching moment, Jeffrey Holland asked his son to pray for direction. Afterward, he asked his son what he felt, and Matt replied that he felt strongly they should go to the left. Replying that he had felt the same way, his father turned the truck to the left. Ten minutes later, they came to a dead end and returned to take the other route.
Matt thought for a time and then asked his father why they would get that kind of answer to a prayer. His father replied that with the sun going down, that was undoubtedly the quickest way for the Lord to give them information—in this case, which one was the wrong road. Now, though the other road might not be familiar and could be difficult in places, they could proceed confidently, knowing it was the right one, even in the dark.
So…do you think prayer helped? Did it bring peace, even if it made them have to turnaround…was it better for them to know which road was right?
Or was that a waste of time to pray…because…you can figure that out either way. No spiritual prompting or lesson learned was any better by praying as opposed to randomly picking a road and going with it?
What do you believe about that story? Does it relate to your own questions or not really applying to what you are thinking about in your life? Do you want something more from prayer, but your brain is telling you you’ll never get it?
I heard this story not long ago in a lesson (there’s a video). The new cynical/skeptical me (and having already read LH’s response to this) says “yeah, right.” What if that’s not what happened and you died in the desert? What do you tell your kid then?” Because if it were me I’d be dying in the desert. In my experience I’m just as well off picking my own road.
Quote:I’ve got my opinions, but would rather hear others’. Forgive the preachiness…I’m trying to keep it real and grounded. But would like the discussion if it is helpful to you. I have my doubts and my lack of faith in a lot of things about the church and God…but can still return to church and these Elder Holland-type stories I hear in church by TBMs and I can find real worth in these gospel principles…beyond just fluff and words. It is how I live my life merging the two. It is part of my faith, which wavers, but I’m working on it.
(sorry…lots of questions there…just hoping a discussion may help. You don’t have to reply directly if you don’t want.)
I don’t discount the experiences of others, but I do chalk much of it up to confirmation bias. “Oh, the sun is shining for my picnic today! My prayer is answered.” There are a few instances where I have heard the testimonies of others and there could be little other explanation than divine intervention – but I think those are very rare.
LookingHard wrote:Call me cynical, but if I were to continue the story
Quote:Matt was silent for a minute and then he turned to his dad and asked, “Did I just see a case of cognitive bias in action?” The father replied in a serious deep tone, “Yes son. And you need to learn that lesson most of all then all of life will make sense.”
:clap: Love your ending to the story. I probably gravitate more towards that too…and I’m super impressed Matt at his young age knows confirmation bias when he sees it…must have a good dad teaching him good things
If I can play along, the ending to my story would probably go like this:
Quote:After a while, heading down the “right” road with confidence…a newly fallen tree blocks the entire road, making it impossible to pass.
Me: Great…
👿 apparently…there are NO right roads.My son: “None shall pass” [In a holy grail voice]
We laugh and share a good moment together.
Later that evening, after considerable effort to get home, including calls to emergency stations to finally get home super late,
My sweet wife would tell us both: I have no doubts that tree just fell. Had you not had the prompting to go left to the dead end road, and then turning around to go back to the new road, the timing of that fallen tree would have smashed and killed you both. Your lives were spared because of your faith to listen the promptings you received.
ME: Huh. I doubt it…but…it does kinda make you wonder sometimes. I wish I had the faith my wife does to accept that explanation so confidently. We’ll never know for sure.
My son would later use that story in his missionary farewell speech, fully believing his life was spared because of prayer so he could serve a mission.
Decades later my son would have a faith crisis and start to think that story was all made up, much to his mom’s dismay.
[END]
That’s kinda how I see a lot of these things about faith in prayer. So many different stories about it. So many different possible benefits, from peace to having a positive moment or a teaching moment to opportunities to exercise faith not available without prayer to possibly even miracles.DarkJedi wrote:There are a few instances where I have heard the testimonies of others and there could be little other explanation than divine intervention – but I think those are very rare.
I think that is interesting, DJ, that you have faith to leave the door open to the rare instances of unexplainable divine intervention that others share. You believe it’s possible, it sounds like. I admire your faith.
In full disclosure…I’m more skeptical/cynical than I am fully believing it all literally happens…I simply went through the worst years of my life with little to no response from God in my life. When I felt I needed it most…it was disappointing to me. More of just the peace stuff…not the stuff that would seem to have really made a difference.
Having passed through most of it and looking back…I don’t know what to make of it. Maybe intervention can happen, but I didn’t need it like I thought…or maybe I am to learn something else.
The interesting thing is…prayer allows for opportunities to express deep feelings, exercise faith, and write our stories. One thing for sure…don’t compare stories. I simply don’t have the miraculous stories that others do. Part of me is “if prayer can’t help when I needed it with serious issues, I simply don’t care about lost keys”. And yet…I find that glimmer of faith that I find value in prayer, even if I’ve redefined it so greatly since my missionary days and when I was young. My emphasis is on holistic value in the concepts…not on results which vary.
Really, peace is a result of what we allow ourselves to think. I think that when we pray we are invoking our own form of cognitive therapy. Our appeals to a higher power help us feel better Expressing gratitude, whether in prayer, or simply to ourselves, brings peace. Thinking with hope, as we often do in prayer, brings peace. If we can master our thoughts, then I think we can master peace.
I have heard meditation is good for that. To simply empty your mind and cast out all unpeaceful thoughts. I have also had to discipline my mind with specific thoughts to get peace. One was when I had symptoms of a particularly progressive, distressing neurological disease. After a lot of testing, the doctor said “I have to wait for it to localize before I can diagnose it”. So, there was a problem, but he wasn’t sure what kind of disorder it was in that class of disorders. So, every day, I had a reminder, once every 18 seconds or so, that I had a problem with pinpricks and fasciulations/twitching and other symptoms.
With that kind of pressure on you, and the misery it creates, I HAD to learn to be at peace. I learned to tell myself “the disease is not debiltating me today, so I will enjoy today”. And I did. In the last 10 years, I have thought less and less and less about the disorder, and when I do, I deal with it with that phrase.
Recently symptoms have increased slightly, and there is possible localization, but it is too early to tell if it is just an ache and pain or something worthy of diagnoses and a trip to the doctor. I can still do EVERYTHING I have been able to do in this season of my life. So, I am relying on the same cognitive discipline to stay at peace. I feel no desire to share it with anyone in my family or circle of friends like I used to when I would worry. Peace has come to me through simply changing what I allow myself to think when the symptoms present themselves.
I have even faced, in theory, financial ruin, loss of a child (in theory, not actuality) and have come very close to these things happening. I don’t seem to worry about it anymore because even in the face of financial ruin, I will still be able to live, eat, and exist. Plus, those things are not affecting me today. I have had to deal with a bit of anger at one time about it, but not worry. At that time, during the possible financial ruin situation, I accepted what life would look like if I had no money other than for basic necessities. And accepted it.
There is deep wisdom in the Bible’s admonition to worry about today only, and say fooey on the things of tomorrow. Plan for them, hope for the best, but don’t let their possibility worry you or disturb your peace.
Quote:There have been key points in my life when I needed more than peace — I needed intervention. I needed God to swoop in and change my life in a way that I could not change it. I was powerless to change the things that needed changing.
A while back, my wife had a conflict with her supervisor and he wrote her up for it (it was a complex matter the details of which won’t be interesting to most people) and the write up was a poorly written, garbled, document with some truths but a great deal of untruth in it. This would go in her employee file. My wife was understandably upset about it (as was I). She declared that she was going to fight it and decided to file a grievance against her manager. The first step was an informal meeting with the manager to work things out. She had a good friend who was a higher-up in their employee association and my wife asked this friend to come to that meeting. Then she felt that it might create an even more hostile environment and told her not to come. At the last moment, my wife changed her mind and called up this friend whose immediate response was “I’ll be there!” The friend showed up and after a three hour meeting with her supervisor, everything was worked out, in large part due to this friend who helped soothe feelings on both sides of the matter. After the meeting, my wife and her friend were debriefing a bit and this friend said, “When I heard about this, there was no way I was going to let you go to that meeting alone…unless you didn’t want me to.”
The knowledge that this woman was THERE to help my wife was incredibly sustaining to her. It didn’t take away the anxiety attending the difficult meeting but it made the process much more bearable. That’s what I would wish from God. Peace is nice (I’m all for it) but sometimes I need a strong sense of support in the face of trials.
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